In the beginning...reverse evolution.

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Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

Those thugs are perfectly capable of having smart children.
On rare occasions ;)
Most of the time, scum produces scum ;)

Let me specify though, that from what I know, intelligence tends to become average, both from above average intelligent parents and below average intelligent parents.

chrismb
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

seedload wrote: As to your comments about 6'6" thugs. Those thugs are perfectly capable of having smart children.
There you go again, delineating intelligence and physical strength. I'm not, and haven't, done that, you keep fixating on this separation. There is no reason that a few professors and PhD's aren't thugs aswell, the point is that it is the thug trait that'll mean they beat the sh*t out of those other whinging academics on the way through the broken windows to the tinned beans.

THIS IS MY POINT THAT YOU'RE MISSING. The trait of survival importance here in the situation of looting is the strength of the thug, not their intelligence. They might well be 'intelligent enough' to outspell an english major but that don't count for nuffin when it comes to fist-i-cuffs over the Heinz.

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

chrismb wrote: THIS IS MY POINT THAT YOU'RE MISSING. The trait of survival importance here in the situation of looting is the strength of the thug, not their intelligence. They might well be 'intelligent enough' to outspell an english major but that don't count for nuffin when it comes to fist-i-cuffs over the Heinz.
You continue to ignor the question of viability. Again, if the aliens are not viable, they die. If they are viable, their intelligence takes over and they rebuild long before they have to evolve.

Thugs and professors are the same species with the same genes and the same ability to make more professors or thugs alike. It doesn't matter who wins because in a few generations, a kind of society will reform, long before there was a hint of evolutionary change. Again, you are way off on scale.

High intelligence gets in the way of traditional evolutionary thought.

But, let me get this straight. Are you now arguing that the aliens kicked each others ass into stupidity? I thought it was the lions and tigers and bears that they were getting all stupid over.

regards

seedload
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Dolphins - a better case.

Post by seedload »

Chris, let me help you out.

Thinking about this way too much, I think a better case can be made for Dolphins being decedents of aliens.

The premise being the opposite of yours in that it is the lack of a need to adapt that makes em stupid rather than a need to adapt.

When the aliens get here and settle in our waters, they soon find that their technology, knowledge, and even their intelligence is pretty unimportant on this planet. Rather than having to adapt, they are confronted by the fact that they DONT have to adapt. They have no natural enemies here. Just swimming around and eating fish is a pretty good and safe life. Their biggest worry, sharks, prove to be not much of a threat. Cruising around the world, eating fish, and doing a few back flips is a great way to spend a lifetime. It is a hippy lifestyle. And they don't have to be that smart to do just fine, thank you very much.

Over time, the original cities they foolishly built crumble due to lack of care and swimming around enjoying life without technology becomes the norm. No worries, man. Intelligence is no longer selected for and over hundreds of thousands of generations; modern dolphins emerge, still with the atrophied vestigiality of their alien ancestor’s high intelligence, but no real need to use it.

The scenario works pretty well until you start looking at DNA and all of that other silly science stuff - so don't do that – not that you have so far.

chrismb
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Re: Dolphins - a better case.

Post by chrismb »

seedload wrote:Chris, let me help you out.

Thinking about this way too much, I think a better case can be made for Dolphins being decedents of aliens.

The premise being the opposite of yours in that it is the lack of a need to adapt that makes em stupid rather than a need to adapt.

When the aliens get here and settle in our waters, they soon find that their technology, knowledge, and even their intelligence is pretty unimportant on this planet. Rather than having to adapt, they are confronted by the fact that they DONT have to adapt. They have no natural enemies here. Just swimming around and eating fish is a pretty good and safe life. Their biggest worry, sharks, prove to be not much of a threat. Cruising around the world, eating fish, and doing a few back flips is a great way to spend a lifetime. It is a hippy lifestyle. And they don't have to be that smart to do just fine, thank you very much.

Over time, the original cities they foolishly built crumble due to lack of care and swimming around enjoying life without technology becomes the norm. No worries, man. Intelligence is no longer selected for and over hundreds of thousands of generations; modern dolphins emerge, still with the atrophied vestigiality of their alien ancestor’s high intelligence, but no real need to use it.

The scenario works pretty well until you start looking at DNA and all of that other silly science stuff - so don't do that – not that you have so far.
A truly bad example. I'll leave this exercise in happy-chatty with a Douglas Adams quote;
“Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much, the wheel, New York, wars and so on, while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man...for precisely the same reason.”

Thanks for all the fish, guys, the debate was fun and has run its course. Of course you're not descended from extra-terrestrials... (everyone from the rest of the galaxy that comes for a visit on earth is briefed on that and told not to discuss it, so as not to confuse you!)

:wink:

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Re: Dolphins - a better case.

Post by seedload »

So long and thanks for all the fish.

Look, seriously, intelligence at a human level or higher is the shit. There really isn't any way to imagine it being selected out for strength or anything else over evolutionary time scales. Especially since strength and intelligence are NOT mutually exclusive things. In your scenario, the aliens don't have to get dumb to get strong.

The only real danger, as other's have pointed out, is that of complacency and a lack of need to apply intelligence no longer making it something that is specifically selected for. If that happens than genetic drift takes over and who knows where the aliens would go. However, given a large population, genetic drift is not that big an issue any way. The dumbing of an alien species is not very likely.

Applied to humans, and going back to some other comments in this thread, intelligence may no longer be being selected for in our modern society, but that does not mean we lose our intelligence automatically. The large population means that our current level of intelligence will likely stick around for a very long time because genetic drift is small in large interactive populations.

Regards

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

The large population means that our current level of intelligence will likely stick around for a very long time because genetic drift is small in large interactive populations.
True, but in recent years we have had a situation where the dumb people ended up having more children and the more intelligent people had less. This is mostly the fault of politicians and ideological missguidance.

alexjrgreen
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Location: UK

Post by alexjrgreen »

Skipjack wrote:Humans are among the weaker animals per KG of bodymass.
Humans weren't always that way. Neanderthals were a fair match for most of the animals they hunted.

Weaker muscles and a lighter skeleton allowed modern humans to divert more oxygen to their brains, but that only succeeded because they were already smart enough to survive by their wits.
Ars artis est celare artem.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Neanderthals were a fair match for most of the animals they hunted.
Mammoth?
Weaker muscles and a lighter skeleton allowed modern humans to divert more oxygen to their brains, but that only succeeded because they were already smart enough to survive by their wits.
The homo sapiens neanderthalensis was pretty much exactly as smart as the homo sapiens sapiens. So you are kinda contradicting yourself here.

BenTC
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Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:54 am

Post by BenTC »

Skipjack wrote: True, but in recent years we have had a situation where the dumb people ended up having more children and the more intelligent people had less. This is mostly the fault of politicians and ideological missguidance.
Does anyone have a link to the first few minutes of the movie "Idiocracy"? I went looking for a link to post in another thread here. There used to be one, but now I could only find it broken into five pieces.

MirariNefas
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Post by MirariNefas »

alexjrgreen wrote: Weaker muscles and a lighter skeleton allowed modern humans to...
...survive famines and swim.

alexjrgreen
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Location: UK

Post by alexjrgreen »

Skipjack wrote:
Neanderthals were a fair match for most of the animals they hunted.
Mammoth?
I said most...
Skipjack wrote:
Weaker muscles and a lighter skeleton allowed modern humans to divert more oxygen to their brains, but that only succeeded because they were already smart enough to survive by their wits.
The homo sapiens neanderthalensis was pretty much exactly as smart as the homo sapiens sapiens. So you are kinda contradicting yourself here.
Arguably smarter, though their language may have been limited. Certainly their brains were bigger, though their bigger size and much bulkier muscles balance that out. Even though their lungs were bigger, the oxygen required by their muscles would have reduced the amount available to the brain.
Ars artis est celare artem.

alexjrgreen
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Location: UK

Post by alexjrgreen »

MirariNefas wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote: Weaker muscles and a lighter skeleton allowed modern humans to...
...survive famines and swim.
The Neanderthals survived many famines, and since they hunted seal and porpoise off Gibraltar they must have been able to swim. Possibly not as good at running, though.
Ars artis est celare artem.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

the oxygen required by their muscles would have reduced the amount available to the brain
How do you get to this conclusion? I would not say that e.g. basketballplayers are dumber, or some very tall body builders (unless they take anabolics, maybe gggg).
So why do you get to the conclusion that more muscle mass reduces the amount of oxygen available to the brain?
If that was so then everyone doing sports would be automatically getting dumber. The oposite is true though.

Their speech abilities might have been more limited though. I know for sure that their elbows did not allow them to throw spears.

Aero
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Location: 92111

Post by Aero »

The Neanderthals survived many famines, and since they hunted seal and porpoise off Gibraltar they must have been able to swim. Possibly not as good at running, though.
Speaking of Neanderthals reminds me of a very old joke.

What's the difference between a Dumbotron and a Vomitroid? ------------- "Gender." :D
And who can guess the difference between a Megadumbotran and a Jumbovomitroid? :D :D "Gender!" :D
Aero

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