Population Control Solves Alot of Problems

[Skipjack]

Frankly I hope our decendents abandon our ways entirely, there are plenty of things that need improving.

In this context this does not make any sense. There wont be much of descendents if they do what you want them to do. Since they wont exist, they wont be able to improve on anything.
Unless you consider the absense of human life an improvement. I sure hope you dont, because I would consider this kind of thinking pretty alienating.

And... from what I could gather, you wont have any descendants anyway. So how dare you tell my descendents what to do?
You are either in the game, or out. Since you wont exist in 70 years from now (at latest), you will be out. No descendent- >out.
It is that easy.

[Shubedobedubopbopbedo]

I'm out. I'm not playing the game. I've already said that. And good luck if you think you have any control over what your own descendants do or think. How dare you claim ownership of your descendants. Your own children will merely tolerate you. You need to realize that.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if 100 yrs from now the USA is an impoverished overpopulated nation ruled by dictatorship that daily executes members of political opposition groups, or anyone they decide belongs to one. Hell, the US is almost there already, by proxy. A menace to the rest of the world. What will be the next "War on 'fill in the blank' " ?

You people seem to think that technology will solve all your problems. You fail to understand that there are limits to what is possible. The laws of physics cannot be circumvented by invention. There will come a point when no technological improvement will be possible to prevent the starvation of millions.

As for the odious need to secure employment or starve, I could care less about the fruits of someone else's labors. It should be the right of every human to survive free from subjugation. It's time to invent a system that allows individuals to cultivate their own product and survive easily without employees or employers. frick! You know a cat spends mere minutes a day hunting for food, and sleeping the rest of the day. No matter how smart or innovative humans have been, it's all gone to reinforce a social power-structure of one form or another, that seeks to imprison more and more people within its grip. That's the legacy of every asshole politician and businessman in human history.

Grow or die is a corporate call to fiscal battle. They strive to build a pyramid scheme, and increasing population is the only hope they have to grow their profits and pay their shareholders for one more year. It's frick.

[windmill]

I'm out. I'm not playing the game. I've already said that. And good luck if you think you have any control over what your own descendants do or think. How dare you claim ownership of your descendants. Your own children will merely tolerate you. You need to realize that.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if 100 yrs from now the USA is an impoverished overpopulated nation ruled by dictatorship that daily executes members of political opposition groups, or anyone they decide belongs to one. Hell, the US is almost there already, by proxy. A menace to the rest of the world. What will be the next "War on 'fill in the blank' " ?

You people seem to think that technology will solve all your problems. You fail to understand that there are limits to what is possible. The laws of physics cannot be circumvented by invention. There will come a point when no technological improvement will be possible to prevent the starvation of millions.

As for the odious need to secure employment or starve, I could care less about the fruits of someone else's labors. It should be the right of every human to survive free from subjugation. It's time to invent a system that allows individuals to cultivate their own product and survive easily without employees or employers. frick! You know a cat spends mere minutes a day hunting for food, and sleeping the rest of the day. No matter how smart or innovative humans have been, it's all gone to reinforce a social power-structure of one form or another, that seeks to imprison more and more people within its grip. That's the legacy of every asshole politician and businessman in human history.

Grow or die is a corporate call to fiscal battle. They strive to build a pyramid scheme, and increasing population is the only hope they have to grow their profits and pay their shareholders for one more year. It's frick.

I think ther's a very real chance that the U.S. will descend into dictatorship too, but more likely because of people who think like you, not in spite of them.

Like the man said: If you're not a communist when you're young, you have no heart. And if you're not a capitalist when you're old, you have no brain.

[Skipjack]

And good luck if you think you have any control over what your own descendants do or think.

Uhmm, I wont have control over them, but my genes will have a tiny bit of control
Plus, I do plan on spending enough time with my children to educate them on certain values that I hold high. That might only last for a generation, but maybe, only maybe it will last longer.
Without children, there wont even be a maybe.

How dare you claim ownership of your descendants. Your own children will merely tolerate you. You need to realize that.

Well, believe it or not, I do have a very good and I want to say loving relationship with both of my parents. I also did with my grandparents until they died.
If my children are in any way the way I am and provided I treat them well (which I am honestly planning to), I dont see any reason why they should not have the same feelings for me, that I have had for my parents.
Of course that is never certain. Of course there is always a small chance that they might turn out to be menacing psychpaths, but given the fact that our genes make 70% of what we are, I somewhat doubt that.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if 100 yrs from now the USA is an impoverished overpopulated nation

If the USA does not get its fertility rate up and if imigration does not increase, then the USA will actually have pretty much exactly the same amount of people it has now.

The US fertility rate is pretty much exactly what is needed to maintain the level of population. It is in fact only held up by immigrants who traditionally have more children the first generation, or two.

ruled by dictatorship that daily executes members of political opposition groups, or anyone they decide belongs to one.

I wont see that happen. Since everyone in the US is allowed to bear arms, you would much rather end up with another civil war than people accepting a dictatorship as you describe. Not that one would be much favorable over the other though. Also, I dont see any danger for this to happen anyway.

It's time to invent a system that allows individuals to cultivate their own product and survive easily without employees or employers.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Ever been hunting. Ever worked on a corn field? Ever even had a garden? How many times that year did you have the salad that you grew? How many more times did you have to go to the supermarket instead? Hello? There is a reason why people are healthier, live longer and have more free time than ever to come up with bullshit like that. That reason is the efficiency of our system and the technology we have.
Besides: So everyone would spend their days out hunting and gathering. Who would build your house meanwhile and sew your cloths?
You wont, because you will be out hunting and gathering.
Oh and that is only the tip of the iceberg.

[kunkmiester]

Memes make up a significant part of what we become mentally. We get most of those memes from our parents, provided they spend enough time with you.

The US won't be come a giant dictatorship. It'll break up into a dozen smaller nations first. One or two of those might indeed be a dictatorship though.

[Shubedobedubopbopbedo]

Well, believe it or not, I do have a very good and I want to say loving relationship with both of my parents. I also did with my grandparents until they died.
If my children are in any way the way I am and provided I treat them well (which I am honestly planning to), I dont see any reason why they should not have the same feelings for me, that I have had for my parents.

A mistake made by millions of parents. We are more a product of our environment than our genes. Your kids will spend far more time with their classmates at school, and later with their co-workers, than they ever will with you. When you put your foot down, watch what happens.

The US fertility rate is pretty much exactly what is needed to maintain the level of population. It is in fact only held up by immigrants who traditionally have more children the first generation, or two.

That's a giant steaming pile of bullshit. Twenty years ago the US population was 250 million, now it is well over 300 million. Several whole cities were built to sustain them. The reason immigation is cited by gov't as your only hope to maintain a stable population is because they want the population to grow - businesses need new money to pay dividends to shareholders, and cheap labor for their sweatshops.

It's time to invent a system that allows individuals to cultivate their own product and survive easily without employees or employers.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Ever been hunting. Ever worked on a corn field? Ever even had a garden? How many times that year did you have the salad that you grew? How many more times did you have to go to the supermarket instead? Hello? There is a reason why people are healthier, live longer and have more free time than ever to come up with bullshit like that. That reason is the efficiency of our system and the technology we have. Besides: So everyone would spend their days out hunting and gathering. Who would build your house meanwhile and sew your cloths? You wont, because you will be out hunting and gathering. Oh and that is only the tip of the iceberg.

A modern version of hunting & gathering might be interesting. But you aren't capable of invention, so you can't see past the current "way of life" to come up with something superior. You like your technology, but only because you had enough time to get comfortable with it. If anyone else did invent a better system, you'd be screaming like a banshee about how it's going to do this and that bad thing, because you're a luddite. It astonishes me and pisses me off that humans work more hours in a year than nearly any other species on earth. And we don't have a choice, we work the first 10 minutes of the workday to meet our subsistence needs, the next few hours to pay taxes, and the remaining 6-8 hrs to line the wallet of our employer. At the end of the day we get enough money for our subsistence needs. Our employer buys a pimpin ride with his excess cash. And gov't makes sure he has lots of fresh immigrants to replace the smart ones who quit.

[TallDave]

But you aren't capable of invention, so you can't see past the current "way of life" to come up with something superior.

Nonsense. We come up with something superior every day.

The current way of life is the apex of the human condition going back as far as humanity has existed. We are richer, freer, safer, healthier, better-fed, better-entertained, and just better off period than any humans that ever lived.

And we don't have a choice, we work the first 10 minutes of the workday to meet our subsistence needs, the next few hours to pay taxes, and the remaining 6-8 hrs to line the wallet of our employer.

Funny, I'm pretty sure I get paid those last 6-8 hrs, too. If not, I'm calling a lawyer.

Anyways, what about those of us who have started our own businesses?

As for the odious need to secure employment or starve, I could care less about the fruits of someone else's labors.

You seem to think you deserve food and shelter and etc provided by someone else.

It should be the right of every human to survive free from subjugation.

You are free from subjugation, you're just whining about having to work.

Work is not "subjugation," it's what you voluntarily do in return for the means to enjoy the wondrous bounty of our civilization, by contributing to it. And like I said, feel free to go out there and not work. Lots of people do.

There will come a point when no technological improvement will be possible to prevent the starvation of millions.

There is no reasonable basis on which to expect this.

It's time to invent a system that allows individuals to cultivate their own product and survive easily without employees or employers.

Uh oh, do I detect an anarcho-syndicalist?

Let me save you years of grief: Chomsky is a fool. Best to get over your boss issues and enjoy the splendor of modern civ. Pick up Atlas Shrugged sometime.

[Skipjack]

We are more a product of our environment than our genes.

Sorry but this is not what science says.
Please read up on this. There is plenty of material out there.

That's a giant steaming pile of bullshit. Twenty years ago the US population was 250 million, now it is well over 300 million.

20 years ago the fertility rate was probably higer. Today population increases are the sole result of immigration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ility_rate
US 2.04 That is below the replacement rate of 2.1.

You like your technology, but only because you had enough time to get comfortable with it.

I am comfortable with technology, yes. Technology is responsible for the fact that I am still alive. Without it- let me see- I would so far have died of (and that excludes starving to death and freezing to death:
1. I had a lot of sore throats (angina) as a kid with high fever. That would have killed me then an there. Getting my tonsils removed at the age of 6 helped.
2. I had an inflamed appendix at the age of 10. Had to be surgically removed. Could have killed me then.
3. I had a heart attack at the age of 33. That could have been because of the angina as a kid, or because of stress or both.
Again what saved me was technology.
4. I am very near sighted. I need glasses or contact lenses. Without those I would have run into something, or fallen over something that would have killed me many times so far.

Just a few examples. As I mentioned I deliberately excluded starving to death and freezing to death.
You know the house I live in was built with technology. The cloth I am wearing were made with technology.
The food I am eating is made with technology.
That is why all this is cheaper now than it ever was. That is why we have more to eat than we ever did.

And we don't have a choice, we work the first 10 minutes of the workday to meet our subsistence needs, the next few hours to pay taxes, and the remaining 6-8 hrs to line the wallet of our employer.

Like the many Austrians I am self employed. Most people here are either self employed or work in companies with less than 5 people!
Just to get you an idea:
I am working 10 hours a day+
My employees work 8 hours a day or less.
My employees earn more than I do and they know it.
I drive an old, used car, thanks.

You never got your head out of your corporate employment ass. That is the problem. Go ahead found your own company and see how that goes!

It astonishes me and pisses me off that humans work more hours in a year than nearly any other species on earth.

This is a giant pile of bullshit. Where did you get that idea from?
Also, what is "work"?
You can sit on your ass in a comfortable office chair all day long, or you can work on a field many more hours and try to farm whatever little nature will give you without technology.
Ever been hunting?
It takes many, many hours to "catch" something and more often than not you end up empty handed.

[Giorgio]

It astonishes me and pisses me off that humans work more hours in a year than nearly any other species on earth. And we don't have a choice, we work the first 10 minutes of the workday to meet our subsistence needs, the next few hours to pay taxes, and the remaining 6-8 hrs to line the wallet of our employer. At the end of the day we get enough money for our subsistence needs. Our employer buys a pimpin ride with his excess cash. And gov't makes sure he has lots of fresh immigrants to replace the smart ones who quit.

You DO HAVE a choice to change this if you do not like it. Renounce to government, and to its infrastructure, renounce to modern society with its positive and negative aspects. If you are really willing to follow your words there are still lot of places where people with your ideas can go and live.

[alexjrgreen]

It astonishes me and pisses me off that humans work more hours in a year than nearly any other species on earth. And we don't have a choice, we work the first 10 minutes of the workday to meet our subsistence needs, the next few hours to pay taxes, and the remaining 6-8 hrs to line the wallet of our employer. At the end of the day we get enough money for our subsistence needs. Our employer buys a pimpin ride with his excess cash. And gov't makes sure he has lots of fresh immigrants to replace the smart ones who quit.

You DO HAVE a choice to change this if you do not like it. Renounce to government, and to its infrastructure, renounce to modern society with its positive and negative aspects. If you are really willing to follow your words there are still lot of places where people with your ideas can go and live.

Hunter-gatherers have more free time than any other society on earth.

Agriculture increased viable population density, but not leisure time, with the possible exception of the very rich.

[Skipjack]

Hunter-gatherers have more free time than any other society on earth.

Hu?
Ever been hunting? Most of the time you wont shoot anything. Oh I forgot, you will have to use self built bow and arrows, because in a hunter- gatherer society nobody would build guns for you.
Of course in order to build your bow and arrows you will need tools. You will have to build those from something first. Unless you have the skills to find some usable metal somewhere and then have the skills to smelter them and forge your own weapons, you better start butting those rocks together.

[alexjrgreen]

Hunter-gatherers have more free time than any other society on earth.

Hu?
Ever been hunting?

Ever been with hunter-gatherers?

When you've grown up in an environment you know where everything is, and the tools you need are made as part of the culture.

[Skipjack]

Well, I seriously doubt it, sorry.
Besides, I really prefer keeping my high life expectancy over more free time (which I seriously doubt they have), thanks.
Making tools is work, not some cultural hobby, ask anyone who makes tools for a living.

[alexjrgreen]

Well, I seriously doubt it, sorry.
Besides, I really prefer keeping my high life expectancy over more free time (which I seriously doubt they have), thanks.
Making tools is work, not some cultural hobby, ask anyone who makes tools for a living.

Start here:

Hunter-gatherers
Insights from a golden affluent age

There are valid criticisms of Sahlin's approach (you can quibble the definition of work) but they don't alter his basic thesis.

[MSimon]

Well, I seriously doubt it, sorry.
Besides, I really prefer keeping my high life expectancy over more free time (which I seriously doubt they have), thanks.
Making tools is work, not some cultural hobby, ask anyone who makes tools for a living.

Start here:

Hunter-gatherers
Insights from a golden affluent age

There are valid criticisms of Sahlin's approach (you can quibble the definition of work) but they don't alter his basic thesis.

The murder rate in such societies was rather high IIRC. And then there is maintaining your range in the face of other bands who would like your high productivity area.

Lots of free time. Short life.