Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

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palladin9479
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby palladin9479 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:00 am


Skipjack
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby Skipjack » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:16 pm

Last edited by Skipjack on Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby Skipjack » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:42 pm

This is relevant in the context:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjlPoD_9BJs

choff
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby choff » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:53 am

CHoff

palladin9479
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby palladin9479 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:56 am


hanelyp
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby hanelyp » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:11 am

A manned aircraft commanding a flight of unmanned aircraft which in turn protect the manned aircraft can put a human in the loop to select targets with minimal latency, subject to the limited bandwidth of the human. Once a target is selected the automated aircraft can use superior numbers to overwhelm defenses.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

palladin9479
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby palladin9479 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:16 am

Yep and you can have dozens of operational programs stored that the human operator selects from and directs to the drone. Stuff like intercepting incoming threats, solo or group attacking individual targets, attacking all local targets that fit a specific profile, and so forth. Then you introduce electronics warfare where each system attempts to hack or jam the other, gets into some pretty futuristic stuff.

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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby GIThruster » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:21 pm

"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby Skipjack » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:06 pm

SpaceX LEO constellation would be at 1200 km altitude. Speed of light is ~300,000 km a second. With an angle or another satellite for relay, we can maybe get to 10,000 km total distance. That means a latency of 33 ms, nowhere near 1 second. I don't think even the GTO constellations have one second lag (more like 500 ms).
I have internet with Comcast here and when I do a trace route to comcast.com, I get at least 200ms latency. Doing a Speedtest.net to Comcast's nearest speed test server just 10 miles away gives me 11ms latency...

GIThruster
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby GIThruster » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:31 pm

Even if you are bouncing to Geo, that's 35k km each way, or 70k km. . .no where near a second. When you look at the vast difference between AI and human reaction times, drones are probably much faster than human pilots, especially given they can pull 12 gee maneuvers and humans generally about 4 max.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby Skipjack » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:50 am

Meteor BVRAAM with 100 km range...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiinNwfNi1w

palladin9479
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby palladin9479 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:40 am


krenshala
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby krenshala » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:23 pm

I agree with what palladin9479 is stating on network connectivity, as it matches what I've learned first hand over the last 25 years doing network support/administration.

For a better idea of how long range drone connections will work, I would like to point out any online game where you have a latency of 150ms or longer. While the time difference between when you give a command and when it executes can be compensated for by a skilled user (or player, in the case of games) it can be extremely difficult to be accurate and timely when it takes twice that time to see what the results of the command are and react accordingly. Not only that, but if your network latency is near human reaction time (~200ms) then you are basically going to have remotely controlled drones that take twice as long to react to a new situation. If being shot at, that time (~400ms) could be more than enough to lose the drone before you can do anything about it.

If you are close enough to reduce the network latency to 'near real-time' levels, you are almost guaranteed to be close enough to worry about getting into the thick of things personally, and not just remotely through a drone.

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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:44 pm

sooo that when the swarm defense becomes a player
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

krenshala
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Re: Since we had this discussion about UAVs and F22s etc...

Postby krenshala » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:13 pm

I see it as picking your problem: AI that may not be able to cope well enough to give the human time to assess and respond versus having a human close enough to respond in a timely fashion and thus is also close enough to have to worry about the outcome.

I'm sure there is a middle ground that will make drones viable in a number of roles, the question is what roles, and what limitations will those roles require to be functionally useful.


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