Alternate Space Elevator Design

djolds1 · Post by **djolds1** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:07 pm

MirariNefas · Post by **MirariNefas** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:20 pm

Cool. I remember seeing another proposal for an inflatable space tower, but I think it only went up to a few hundred kilometers.

I wonder if we could use electrostatic balloons for ultralight, super high-altitude airships.

MirariNefas · Post by **MirariNefas** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:25 pm

Actually, now that I think of it, that last proposal I saw for an inflatable tower came from the same guy.

Do people listen to this fellow? Is he important, or bonkers? I hope he's some kind of revolutionary and that people are taking notes.

djolds1 · Post by **djolds1** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:28 pm

MirariNefas wrote:Actually, now that I think of it, that last proposal I saw for an inflatable tower came from the same guy.

Do people listen to this fellow? Is he important, or bonkers? I hope he's some kind of revolutionary and that people are taking notes.

That is one reason I posted the link. Informed opinion appreciated.

MirariNefas · Post by **MirariNefas** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:44 pm

The guy is very space focused. Dr. Bolonkin has written, "Inflatable ‘Evergreen’ dome settlements for Earth’s Polar Regions", "New Concept of High Speed AB Solar Sail", "AB beam propulsion for interplanetary flights", "Electrostatic linear engine", "Non-rocket transportation system for space travel", "Kinetic space towers and launchers "... and the list goes on.

He is not widely cited by others; the majority of his citations are when he cites himself, actually. The articles I can bring up for him were all written in 2003 or later, so perhaps he will be more popular in the future. His rate of publication in such a short time is respectable, and I suspect he has another body of work prior to 2003 that I can't access.

It seems that he got his doctorate and worked in aerospace in the Soviet Union, and I'll hazard that it took awhile to get back on his feet and into the space track again after the fall of the USSR. This would lead me to think that he's a respectable professional.

On the other hand, his website shows some rather odd writings, like, "A.Bolonkin, Break-through in Immortality" and "Natural Hunam Purpose is to be God." He is perhaps a bit of an eccentric. He seems like an interesting fellow, and if I'm ever in New York maybe I'll try looking him up.

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:02 pm

What would it take to build a proof of concept model?
Say about 2,953 feet (nearly 1 kilometer) high with a climber with an average speed of 16.4 feet (5 meters) per second, or about 11 miles (18 kilometers) per hour.

http://www.spaceward.org/

They will let you use your own cable you know.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:41 am

When USS Enterprise Ensign Chekov says "It was inwented by a Russion, you know", Bolonkin would claim that Russian was himself. He seems to have "inwented" everything.

WRT space launching, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Non-r ... Written.3F

djolds1 · Post by **djolds1** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:21 am

KitemanSA wrote:When USS Enterprise Ensign Chekov says "It was inwented by a Russion, you know", Bolonkin would claim that Russian was himself. He seems to have "inwented" everything.

WRT space launching, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Non-r ... Written.3F

Yup, the grammar is very bad, but is the concept doable?

EDIT

After some basic searching I found 9 papers by this guy on the NASA Technical Reports Server, including the inflatable tower concept mentioned earlier by MirariNefas.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?N=0&Ntk ... t=Bolonkin

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:46 pm

I have a question. "Just what is electron gas?"

Is it a normal gas of molecules, like air, with a negative charge on each molecule? Is it something kind of like that only using helium perhaps? Or is it just a cloud of free electrons held in place by the outer skin? And if it is the latter someone should be able to make a balloon using it. It should have a pretty good lift, too. Of course you could do the same with charged air if your device can insulate the charge to avoid neutralizing the air.

If I understood the mechanics of his tower, it simply tapered inward a little, but the vertical force component on the tapered wall was enough to hold the weight of the wall and then some. If my understanding is right, then the horizontal force component would be huge so the material would need to be very strong. I don't see a difference between filling his tower with "electron gas" and filling it with pressurized air when it comes to strength of materials requirements though his electron gas would be lighter than air, maybe.

Tom Ligon · Post by **Tom Ligon** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:02 pm

There is a whole field of "gaseous electronics". Dr. Bussard stumbled on the concept, then sent me to a gathering of these types to see if we could get them interested in fusion. The field covers vacuum tubes, plasma displays, thyratron tubes, and various types of plasma-based lighting. Technically, the Polywell falls in this broad category, although usual gaseous electronics energies are in the few hundred volts range or less.

Basically, you can treat a vacuum tube as a device for handling an electron gas.

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:04 am

So the tower has an inner layer to hold a negative charge and a coil or electron gun to pump electrons into the interior. Start with no space inside the tower material and insert electrons. The tower inflates. What's next?

Tom Ligon · Post by **Tom Ligon** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:09 am

Without seriously reading, just letting my SF side run wild, perhaps the notion is that electrostatic repulsion is vastly stronger than gravity, so that's why you raise the elevator with electrostatics.

However, the structure is now highly attractive to positive ions, so as it goes up thru the ionosphere, wheee! potential well city! It won't attract electron lightning, but there is a positively-charged variant that is a lot more powerful than electron lightning.

Considering the power in a lightning bolt, how long would it take to recharge this thing after a strike from a typical powerplant?

Oh, one could have so much fun writing the space elevator disaster tale with this one ...

It does not matter if I misunderstand the actual design, for surely Hollywood does not care as long as the special effects are great.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:39 am

Tom Ligon wrote:Without seriously reading, just letting my SF side run wild, perhaps the notion is that electrostatic repulsion is vastly stronger than gravity, so that's why you raise the elevator with electrostatics.

However, the structure is now highly attractive to positive ions, so as it goes up thru the ionosphere, wheee! potential well city! It won't attract electron lightning, but there is a positively-charged variant that is a lot more powerful than electron lightning.

Considering the power in a lightning bolt, how long would it take to recharge this thing after a strike from a typical powerplant?

Oh, one could have so much fun writing the space elevator disaster tale with this one ...

It does not matter if I misunderstand the actual design, for surely Hollywood does not care as long as the special effects are great.

The problem with pumping it full of air is that the differential pressure at the base is on the oder of (WAG) .1 psi and at altitude it is 14.7 psi. With all that such a situation implies.

Aero · Post by **Aero** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:21 am

MSimon wrote:
Tom Ligon wrote:Without seriously reading, just letting my SF side run wild, perhaps the notion is that electrostatic repulsion is vastly stronger than gravity, so that's why you raise the elevator with electrostatics.....
The problem with pumping it full of air is that the differential pressure at the base is on the oder of (WAG) .1 psi and at altitude it is 14.7 psi. With all that such a situation implies.

Of course you could compartmentalize the tower, using slightly lower air pressure as altitude increases. And maybe electrostatic repulsion is vastly stronger than gravity, and stronger than air pressure. But don't you still have the strength of materials problem? Whatever you inflate it with, the horizontal forces on the tower (radial outward) will be vastly more powerful than the vertical forces, it seems to me. And if the vertical forces are enough to hold it erect, then the horizontal forces should be enough to rip it apart. Unless I misunderstood what it is that holds the tower up.
If he has found a way to reinforce common materials to the extent of making a space elevator then it seems to me that the technique should be applicable to a lot of common, everyday uses. Like construction elevators, for example.

Stoney3K · Post by **Stoney3K** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:46 am

Tom Ligon wrote:Oh, one could have so much fun writing the space elevator disaster tale with this one ...

It does not matter if I misunderstand the actual design, for surely Hollywood does not care as long as the special effects are great.

Hey, come to think about it, I haven't seen a movie that does any Polywell or space elevator yet... only a few TV episodes have shown a space lift.

Time to start kicking some monkeys and typewriters...