So how much things are "improving" in the muslim w

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JohnSmith
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Post by JohnSmith »

Hmm...
I think the middle east should nuke Washington. After all, the US has committed terrorist acts, war crimes and inflicted massive civilian casualties in lots of countries. They're always grumbling, and occasionally invade places that haven't done anything to them. It's the only way to stop them for good - destroy their seat of government, and they'll lose heart and that holier-than-thou attitude.

Or, yaknow, start massive conscription campaigns, crank up weapon production and pretty much lose their bloody minds fighting for revenge.
Hmm. That seems about right. Why on earth would ME be any different?

Sometimes you've got to strike, but striking first is a terrible idea. Even striking back can be a bad idea. Simon, you always espouse personal freedom, how can you not see this? Liberty is dangerous, it's a fact. A pure surveillance society would be quite safe, even if it's a terrible thing to live in. People own cars, even though tens of thousands die every year. Far more than from terrorist attacks. Bomb the car factories!
If you can't identify your target, why would you just bomb *somebody* on the grounds that your target won't like it? Is that going to stop them? Would it stop you?

As for 'made somewhere else' products, well, I tend to agree with Simon. I don't like sweat shops, but apparently they're better than whatever else the kids have going for them. Educate, organize, conditions will get better.

China really doesn't care about you. They never have, except to keep you away. Don't have a good solution to their human rights violations, but I don't have a solution to the US's either.

I think we should donate translated libraries of science books to developing nations. Maybe trade sandwiches for completing exams?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Simon, you always espouse personal freedom, how can you not see this?
1. It is the Federal governments job to make war. Part of the charter IIRC.
2. Wars settle irreconcilable differences and the feelings of "we wuz wronged and robbed"
3. It is good to think about these things well in advance of necessity.
4. You know. Gedanken experiments.
5. As far as I know Islam has never signed a peace treaty with the US. So we are still at war with it.
6. The war has been going on (sometimes hot, sometimes cold) since 1776.
7. The Islamics have a bad attitude towards women and gays.
8. Sometimes you go to war to protect your shipping and your values.
9. Islamics respect the strong horse.
10. Never mess with the Eagle. It might invade one of our neighbors and mess with us from there. The Eagle has no respect when it feels wronged. And it has power. And will use it.
11. Peace through superior fire power and the proven will to use it.
12. And you know? Them Merkins are bat sh*t insane. And twitchy.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

If you can't identify your target, why would you just bomb *somebody* on the grounds that your target won't like it?
pour l'encourager les autres

Always bring a 155 to a knife fight and plenty of ammunition. It will discourage knife fights.

I'm a Jacksonian at heart.

Why I'm Not A Libertarian
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

JohnSmith wrote:I think we should donate translated libraries of science books to developing nations. Maybe trade sandwiches for completing exams?
It's an internal issue, their own business. Why do they need reward donation when said educated population will payoff in improved commerce and scientific (etc) returns? That's if you did mean that the US should donate to good foreign students outside the US.

MSimon - no L apostrophe - the grammar reasons are too complex to be worth getting into, but basically l' ahead of that verb is the same (duplicate function) as "les autres" except it's a singular. I forgot the terminology.
Pour encourager les autres. Pour les encourager means the same except you don't know who "les" refers to.

The libertarian/jacksonian difference superficially seems to be academic.. I've seen a few different colors of libertarians with significant spread between the furthest ends. Ultimately the best rationale isn't some textbook stuff or other, but something tailor-made to the circumstances at hand. I'd dig into it some more but don't have time for it.. I completely agree with this one though
I'm with Bucky Fuller - you will not bring down the powers. Best you can do is work on technology that will improve the lot of the poorest. So that is where my main effort goes.

olivier
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Post by olivier »

Betruger is perfectly correct. That expression is from Voltaire's Candide:
"Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres."
"In this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to give courage to the others."
Voltaire ironically refers to a naval battle during the Seven Years' War when a British fleet was engaged against a more heavily armed French fleet. The battle ended with a draw but British Admiral Byng was executed afterwards for not having taken enough risks.
Second time I quote Voltaire on talk-polywell this week.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

"In this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to give courage to the others."
This kinda reminds me of the last decimation in history. During WW1, the french had every 10th soldier of an army (cant remember anymore which one it was)step foreward to report to the execution. To improve the morale of the rest of the troops (people seemingly had enough of getting incinerated in pointless trench wars).
Anyway one of the higher ranking officers also stepped willingly in front of the guns out of protest. He thought that noone in his army would shoot him. Well he was wrong. Note to self, people will always choose to shoot you if they get shot otherwise.

Btw, I still dont understand how they were able to get away with that. I would have restisted until the last drop of blood. If I have to die, I take as many of the "others" with me as I can!

olivier
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Post by olivier »

As far as I know decimation was more a Roman practice and a quite older one. Maybe you are reminding the 1917 mutinies after which 50 soldiers were court-martialled and shot to make an example. This is recounted in Stanley Kubrick's Paths of Glory starring Kirk Douglas.
But in some sense you are right because WWI killed about 20% of all mobilized men and wounded 50% of them, about the same figure for France and Germany. 20% of all young men in the population annihilated in four years.
Compared to the US population of today that would mean 10 to 12 million casualties. This is what war means.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

olivier wrote:As far as I know decimation was more a Roman practice and a quite older one. Maybe you are reminding the 1917 mutinies after which 50 soldiers were court-martialled and shot to make an example. This is recounted in Stanley Kubrick's Paths of Glory starring Kirk Douglas.
But in some sense you are right because WWI killed about 20% of all mobilized men and wounded 50% of them, about the same figure for France and Germany. 20% of all young men in the population annihilated in four years.
Compared to the US population of today that would mean 10 to 12 million casualties. This is what war means.
That is what war fought by stupid Generals means. As a corrective look at casualties in the Pacific war. The Japanese troops (and sailors) were outstanding. The Generals and Admirals were very bad. The loss ratios were about 10:1 in favor of the Americans.

BTW had the WW1 European Generals studied the American Civil War and esp. Longstreet they might not have made the same mistakes. Longstreet was against attacking well defended positions.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

20% of all young men in the population annihilated in four years.


That doesn't quite match your prior statement.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

JohnSmith
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Post by JohnSmith »

1 ) ... so?
2 ) Yes. irreconcilable differences. Between nations. Police settle the ones between people and nutcases.
3 ) Yes.
4 ) Wikipedia says thought experiment. Sure, fair enough
5 ) It's a religion. Despite what you might think, you can't really have a war with a religion. You don't sign peace treaties with them. And you can't be at war with it. You're at war with people.
6 ) ???
7 ) Yes.
8 ) Not so sure about that.
9 ) Maybe? don't know much about that. Sources, please.
10 ) That sounds more like a rabid dog that should be shot.
11 ) That only gets peace for the people with the guns.
12 ) I guess the thought is you want everybody to be terrified of putting a foot wrong, just in case you decide to blow it off. Am I crazy, or do I see just a few parallels between that and the dictatorships that are oh-so-popular in some parts of the world? Those dictatorships you hate so much?


Um, what I meant about the libraries was that instead of stuff like soup kitchens and and whatnot to try and end 3rd world poverty, we should set up libraries and put on sandwich for exam programs. So kids who otherwise wouldn't have time to study cause they've got to find food would study and get food... Come to think of it, I want a sandwich for exam program for me...

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

11 ) That only gets peace for the people with the guns.
That is why it is best that Americans have the guns. We have a rep of being nice to those who surrender.
12 ) I guess the thought is you want everybody to be terrified of putting a foot wrong, just in case you decide to blow it off. Am I crazy, or do I see just a few parallels between that and the dictatorships that are oh-so-popular in some parts of the world? Those dictatorships you hate so much?
See my response above.

If you want world peace you are going to need a world policeman.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

http://www.greatdreams.com/osama_tape.htm
when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

JohnSmith
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Post by JohnSmith »

I'm more in mind of the joke from "Master and Commander,"
- Which weevil do you choose, the big strong weevil, or the small weevil?
- Well, the larger I suppose.
- No! you must always choose the lesser of the two weevils!

I can't argue that the US has been nicer to surrendering countries. You've earned that bit of praise for sure. But. You might have peace after bombing the crap out of everybody else, but everybody else will be fighting each other. Unless you want to occupy and keep the peace. In which case you end up with guerrilla warfare. And we've seen how easy it is to suppress that.
If you want world peace you are going to need a world policeman.
h
No. No nononono. Nay and nada. See, that little thought keeps worming into the collective American brain, and it's that idea that makes me want to take up arms against you.
You don't get to crown yourself king of the playground. Not even if you think you're right. Not even if you're often nice to small children. Not even if you've got the biggest stick. You'll fail if you try, because people hate being coerced by threat.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Unless you want to occupy and keep the peace.
That is what we do. And then leave when asked. Which is why we are trusted.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

You don't get to crown yourself king of the playground. Not even if you think you're right. Not even if you're often nice to small children. Not even if you've got the biggest stick. You'll fail if you try, because people hate being coerced by threat.
We have been very successful at it since 1945. If we stick to the policies that have been working I expect we can do it for another 70 years. After that the world system should be self sustaining or close to it.

You realize that warfare is down nearly 90% from 1950 or so levels since the advent of Pax Americana.

We will be out of Iraq in 2011 unless the Iraqis change their minds.

The world has crowned us king. Clue: when a country is in want of peace keepers they don't ask for the UN. They ask for Americans.

The Chinese trust us to maintain the flow of their oil supplies from the ME.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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