So how much things are "improving" in the muslim w

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GPecchia
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Post by GPecchia »

"The self defense argument is silly. You are not at war. They pose no significant threat.
And changing Islam to be unrecognizable is the same as destroying it. Semantics will not save you. You are proposing genocide."

Like our elite Progressives here in the States;you have your head in the sand. Start by studying history and the Koran. Islam has been at war with all other religions since their inception especially Christians. A couple of links; I can provide many more but do your own research.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/ ... _chri.html

Their even at war with themselves:

http://www.globalpolitician.com/23661-saudi

We are in a World WAR with Islam. There can be only one victor. Which would you prefer?

The United States, since it's inception has been a beacon of personal freedom and liberty for the rest of the world. We ARE the greatest country on this planet and the planet has been extremely lucky to have us. Do a thought experiment: what would the world be like now if the USA never existed? Sunshine and puppies? I think not.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote: I'm no Republican. I'm a libertarian domestically and a Jacksonian wrt international relations.

What is with you? Don't do nuance?
Small "l" libertarian domestically, Jacksonian wrt foreign relations, sounds schizo to me which suggests Republican. Maybe not. Maybe just schizo independant. But at least you're "libertarian" domestically. :lol:

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote: I was pointing out that the Israelis could take out Gaza and they don't.

What is your evidence that the Israelis have committed genocide? It is an assertion not backed by facts. Where are the mass graves? Where are the murder factories?
You are absolutely correct. My statement was inaccurate. My apologies. I meant to say "when they could get away with it", not "accomplish it". Mea culpa. Bad English. So sorry.

As to evidence; read their holy book. It is repleat with bragadocceo over their genocidal exploits. Kind of sickening, really. Joshua ring a bell?

Oh, and again, I used the modern term "Isreali" rather than "Isrealites" which is more connected with their past exploits. Same people. no obviously different attitudes.

Betruger
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

So you only know diluted exports. :) You haven't grown up with them, been taken in like family, sat at dozens of dinners and parties or killed time with em during ramadan, gotten involved with sisters of theirs, etc.

Helius
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:48 pm
Location: Syracuse, New York

Saddam was playing with fire.

Post by Helius »

About Saddam and WMD:
Albright explained how Iraq managed to have a German company, H+H Metalform, became a key supplier to Iraq’s centrifuge program. According to Albright, only the 1991 Gulf War—not IAEA inspectors, export controls or other traditional non-proliferation mechanisms—brought this hitherto unknown program to light.
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?f ... _id=566340

If he was nicer to America, and not such a prankster, his neck still would be normal length.

Now hopefully without insulting my *good* Moslem friends:

GO SAINTS!

JohnSmith
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:04 pm
Location: University

Post by JohnSmith »

Start by studying history and the Koran. Islam has been at war with all other religions since their inception especially Christians.
Start by studying history and the Bible. Christianity has been at war with all other religions since their inception, especially Muslims.

Their even at war with themselves:
They have even been at war with themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles


Now here's the catch, they've been getting better.
We are in a World WAR with Islam. There can be only one victor. Which would you prefer?
Begging the question.
The United States, since it's inception has been a beacon of personal freedom and liberty for the rest of the world.
Eh, you're not too bad. It comes and goes.
We ARE the greatest country on this planet and the planet has been extremely lucky to have us.
Not so much. If you weren't the big dog, someone else would be. Would it be worse? Who knows.
Do a thought experiment: what would the world be like now if the USA never existed? Sunshine and puppies? I think not.
Let's do a thought experiment: what would the world be like now if the USA never existed? Well, the british would have continued to expand into north america, and the lack of attacks on british canada probably wouldn't have pushed us to independence. So the British Empire would probably be massive at this point, and even more powerful than the US is now.
Just a guess of course. But it always is. Sunshine and puppies? Maybe not, but the british empire wasn't that terrible, either.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

As to evidence; read their holy book. It is repleat with bragadocceo over their genocidal exploits. Kind of sickening, really. Joshua ring a bell?
Ah my friend. You are ignorant of the Jewish religion. We now have roughly 3,500 years of common law. For the last 2,000 years acts such as those are now forbidden. By common law. There are very few literalists Jews left. And if they attempted such stunts they would be prosecuted. Not applauded as the Muslims who try such things are.

In fact and in many ways Jewish common law is in part the basis of American law. And why would that be so? Well America was started by men (at least some of them) learned in ancient languages. Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.

I had the great good fortune as a youth to study under one of the great American scholars of Jewish law. Rabbi Groner of the Chicago Beth Din. I studied tort law among other things. That commonly referred to as "it depends on whose ox is gored" in American law. Who is liable when an ox escapes and injures a person or property.

When Europe was a land of savages my long ago ancestors were studying and codifying a very sophisticated rule of law. We had kinder rules for slavery than any other group of the time. I studied that too.

Our founders understood. Look at the inscription on the Liberty Bell. It was the law of Jubilee.
And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. – Leviticus 25:10
The Jews under the Judges had a very Libertarian government. At least for those times. Samuel warned against getting a King.

These were things our founders knew because the Bible was studied. And they studied the codification of Jewish oral law - The Talmud. In fact Jewish schools to this day are called "Talmud Torahs". Meaning oral and written law. A man was not considered cultured if he did not know Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. Sadly My Hebrew is light, my Latin lighter, and of Greek I am ignorant.

Europeans have lost their culture. And they are the worse for it. Ignorance preens itself as enlightenment.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

You are not at war.
Well Osama declared war on the USA. And followers of his or others of similar bent keep attacking the US.

It looks like war to me.

No serious threat? Maybe. But it is bad for business. And even Thomas Jefferson went to war with the jihadis over business interests. We have a long tradition of war with the jihadis. And they with us. I think it is time we finished the business.

Now I understand you don't like this state of affairs. I think there is a simple solution. Get the jihadis to stop. Because I don't think we will until we are victorious.

We're Americans and we'll never surrender, they will. - John McCain

You probably just thought that was campaign rhetoric. Nope. It is a wide swath of American politics.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

The American Libertarian Party is funny. If they applied the same rules they believe in for domestic policy to foreign policy they would be coherent. As it is they favor policemen (sufficiently circumscribed) at home and the rule of the jungle abroad.

I was a hard core Libertarian until 9/11. When the party went pacifist I left them. In fact, ironically, the Libertarian line on American Foreign Policy is indistinguishable from the Communist Line. Funny that.

On 11 Sept 2001 at 13:03:07z - 4 seconds before 2nd plane hit I said to my mate while watching the WTC burn from the first plane hit "This means war."

As far as I can tell the jihadis have not surrendered. Nor have attacks stopped. So it looks to me like we are still at war.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

So fighting to change someone's mind is not genocide, but the eradication - in whole or part - of the people who submit to an ideology is.
There is a wide swath of Muslim ideology that believes in eradicating the Jews. Just or unjust Jews are not going to go quietly into the gas chambers.

And I have no prejudice against Muslims who want to give all that up. I have posting privileges at "Muslims Against Sharia" - Ali Eteraz is a correspondent. SandMonkey from Egypt has invited me to be a friend.

But you better believe that those who don't want to be at peace with me and those who support them actively or by acquiescence will feel the full force of every weapon I can bring to bear.

Besides I don't want to kill them all. I just want to kill those who don't change their minds. This is no more unfair than their declaring all non-Muslim lands dar el Harb. I intend to reciprocate until they change their minds.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

CaptainBeowulf
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Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:35 am

Post by CaptainBeowulf »

MSimon isn't even for changing the minds of all Muslims. He's not for changing the minds of those who don't want to wipe out America or Israel, of those who are not radical... and actually, there are lots of those. In places like Egypt or Morocco there are some people who want to kill you, and there are plenty of people willing to work taking Western tourists around, trade with them, even talk politics in a civil manner with them. So some people's arguments about committing physical or cultural genocide on Muslims are irrelevant. We simply want to put an end to people who are intolerant of our (the West's) existence. We're intolerant of people who are intolerant to us. Seems fair to me.

I still stick to my position (now several pages back) that threatening to nuke mecca at this point would be counter-productive. It would drive more Muslims towards the radicals. Another problem with nukes is that they indiscriminately kill both those who are intolerant of you and those who are tolerant. Now, if those who are tolerant fail to prevent those who are intolerant from killing a lot of us, that position can change. Like MSimon says about "acquiescence"... well, same thing as Japanese civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or German civilians and refugees in Hamburg, Dresden and elsewhere. If you don't do enough to stop the radicals, you might become collateral damage, and you can't really blame anyone for that...

As for 9/11, I believe my first words that day were "this is like Pearl Harbor". Thus far, I seem to have been right.

tombo
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Post by tombo »

On 9/11 Among my earliest words were "This is like the bombing of the Reichstag. I sure hope it doesn't turn out the same." and "I'm much more frightened of our government's reaction than of anything the terrorists might do."
The dice are still bouncing.
Also, I asked all the old people I knew if this was like Pearl Harbor. Every single one of them said NO, Pearl Harbor was much worse.

Yes, the enemy is out there and they are dangerous. But, there are groups within this country that are all to happy to have an enemy to scare the populace into giving up our liberties.

A real statesman of a president would have used the event as leverage to get the moderate moslems to marginalize and ostracize and de-fund their violent extremists. That is the closest we could come to actually winning. The credible threat of war is more powerful than war itself. And much cheaper in every dimension of cost.
Instead we have the extremist fundamentalist moslems there and the extremist fundamentalist christians here using each other as straw men to empower themselves at the expense of the vast majority (IMO) of moderate people in both societies.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Yeah! What tombo said. Eloquently put!

JohnSmith
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Post by JohnSmith »

Hitting the terrorists is fine. I've said it before, I say it again, I have no problem with destroying those who've hit you. What I am against is killing those who wish you no harm, just because it's easier than finding the actual enemy. And hoping that bombing those civs reduces the number of terrorists.

Betruger
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

Warfare isn't made according to platonic rules.

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