Forced vaccinations made easy

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Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Cool idea!
And I think that vaccination is important. Herd immunity and all that, you know...

Aero
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Post by Aero »

Yes - and now we can all be vaccinated against mad cow disease, bird flu, feline encephalomyelitis and all those other terrible animal diseases that might mutate to a human contagion if left alone. :shock:
Aero

kurt9
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Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Post by kurt9 »

The article makes no mention of adjuvants, which are the dark underbelly of vaccination. What do adjuvants do and how do they really work? Are they necessary for vaccine effectiveness? Obviously these mosquitoes would not carry the adjuvants along with the active biologicals they are designed to carry. Would the "vaccines" from these mosquitoes actually work?

The problem with vaccination, as with much of medicine in general, is that no one really knows how they work. Medicine is not like materials science or semiconductors where every process or technology that is done is based on clearly understood scientific principles. Add the fact that almost all medical "professionals" have liberal arts background (e.g. are not technical) and you have a field (medicine) that does not really qualify as a legitimate technical one.

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

As far as I know "pre-med" in undergrad usually constitutes a biology or biochemistry major, with some 1st and 2nd year math courses required as breadth/background for the chemistry part. That's not exactly liberal arts. Then they have 4 years of med school and a year of residency to become a medical doctor.

I guess chiropractors, nurses etc., may be liberal arts people with a college-style (as opposed to university) medical course.

Medical researchers would frequently have Phds in biochemistry, genetics or similar areas.

MirariNefas
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Post by MirariNefas »

As far as I know "pre-med" in undergrad usually constitutes a biology or biochemistry major, with some 1st and 2nd year math courses required as breadth/background for the chemistry part. That's not exactly liberal arts. Then they have 4 years of med school and a year of residency to become a medical doctor.
For premed you don't need to go all the way to get a bio degree... though it's pretty common, because you need to take about half the same classes anyway. Premed is basically the first two years of a bio degree, including a year of lower division math and physics, and often more than a year of chem (including upper division classes).

And of course, the 4 years of med school adds a lot. I was a bio major. I'm in my first year in a bio grad program. And doctors know more about the human immune system than I do, hands down.

Often, biomedical research involves teams of people and networks of collaborators including PhDs and MDs, and some people with both. There are some liberal arts majors involved - as administrative assistants, and later marketing.
The problem with vaccination, as with much of medicine in general, is that no one really knows how they work.
Looks like someone never took an immunology class...
Medicine is not like materials science or semiconductors where every process or technology that is done is based on clearly understood scientific principles.
Biology is more complex than the physics problems being tackled today. Get over it.

DeltaV
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Post by DeltaV »

MirariNefas wrote:Biology is more complex than the physics problems being tackled today. Get over it.
What may be the most complicated object known to Mathematics is obtained from the simple iterative equation z_n+1 = z_n^2 + const.

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set
Mathematically the Mandelbrot set can be defined as the set of complex values of c for which the orbit of 0 under iteration of the complex quadratic polynomial z_n+1 = z_n^2 + c remains bounded.
Anyone who thinks they fully understand what something far more complicated, like a biological system, will do under a given set of conditions, is a fool.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

The problem with vaccination, as with much of medicine in general, is that no one really knows how they work.
Uhm... I do understand how they work. How do you think we can even dare to develop vaccines for things like HIV, without understanding how they work?
I think, I hear Jenny McCarthy speaking out of you.

MirariNefas
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Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:57 am

Post by MirariNefas »

Anyone who thinks they fully understand what something far more complicated, like a biological system, will do under a given set of conditions, is a fool.
Agreed, and the point is not to try.

Complaining that we don't fully understand vaccines and adjuvants is a bit like complaining about agriculture because we don't fully understand the different pigments feeding into photosynthesis.

The problem with agriculture, as with much of life in general, is that no one really knows how it works. Farming is not like materials science or semiconductors where every process or technology that is done is based on clearly understood scientific principles. Add the fact that almost all farming "professionals" have liberal arts background (e.g. are not technical) and you have a field (agriculture) that does not really qualify as a legitimate technical one.

Not gonna stop me from eating food.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

I think the point is: in a complex system the more variables you INTRODUCE the more chances for something to go wrong.

We have history with vaccines. The production and delivery are more or less controlled. Putting them out in the wild is essentially an uncontrolled experiment.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MirariNefas
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Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:57 am

Post by MirariNefas »

Simple solution: sterilize the mosquitos. Keep introducing more through a controlled breeding program. You can always quit, and in the meantime, your sterile mosquitoes are interfering with productive couplings, keeping the mosquito population down.

The transgenic mosquitoes probably wouldn't be stable anyway. Modifications we introduce have a way of not being optimal, so evolution weeds them out.

DeltaV
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Post by DeltaV »

No, you don't have to fully understand something to use it, or even to simply allow it. Just be prepared for the consequences: thalidomide, DDT, BPA, Red Dye #2, Aspartame, ubiquitous fire retardants, hydrogenated oils, MSG, flouridated water, kudzu, asian tiger mosquitoes (you have to experience these in person), zebra mussels, illegal immigration, Fabian socialism, no more salad bar at Wendy's, $3/gal gasoline, ... The list grows daily.

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

What's special about the tiger mosquitoes?

DeltaV
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:05 am

Post by DeltaV »

If you've lived where they live, you'd know.

Image

Betruger
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

I did live in the green. You mean the disease they carry?

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