The problem with active military

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bcglorf
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

Really?

Post by bcglorf »

Makes the point that you can find plenty of assholes on all sides, but nobody ever judges the winners.

Seems to me that there's always been a very large crowd lined up just waiting to tear apart the winners.

Seriously though, if you have a big problem with the events in this video, your problem is with war as a whole, and your not alone. Just take the same time to watch the videos of what things looked like in Iraq WITHOUT the costs of this war being extracted. Nobody is arguing that war is good, the argument is that leaving Saddam in place was worse, and the evidence bears that out.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Nobody is arguing that war is good, the argument is that leaving Saddam in place was worse, and the evidence bears that out
War is dirty, always. The "clean" war is an illusion. If you sign off on a war, you automatically sign off on things like this. You dont want this? Dont start a war.
There is no question that Saddam was a monster, but... there are many loosers in this war and the biggest loosers are not always those that you wanted to hit. Millions of christians that enjoyed at least a questionable savety under Saddam are now fleeing Iraq, because they are being attacked and sloughtered.

bcglorf
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Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

But

Post by bcglorf »

Skipjack wrote:
Nobody is arguing that war is good, the argument is that leaving Saddam in place was worse, and the evidence bears that out
War is dirty, always. The "clean" war is an illusion. If you sign off on a war, you automatically sign off on things like this. You dont want this? Dont start a war.
I think we can probably all strongly agree on this. For my part I certainly do.
Skipjack wrote:There is no question that Saddam was a monster, but... there are many loosers in this war and the biggest loosers are not always those that you wanted to hit. Millions of christians that enjoyed at least a questionable savety under Saddam are now fleeing Iraq, because they are being attacked and sloughtered.
Christians aren't even the biggest losers in this, they are badly outnumbered by the Sunni Muslim minority that has been seeing 'payback' for their favored position under Saddam. Consider the bigger picture. The Shia and Kurdish population that makes up over 75% of the Iraqi population has moved from living like Jews in Nazi Germany to being coalition leaders of the country. For all the other loses, that gain overwhelms them all. To call Saddam a monster "but" is to admit ignorance of just how evil and monstrous he was.

evaitl
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Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:26 am

Post by evaitl »

Something missed in all of this is the leaker.

Even though the shooting looks justified to me, whenever this stuff is leaked it incites the bad guys and gets more Americans killed.

If they catch the leaker, I think a useful punishment would be to bust him to private, put him in the scariest FOB we have and make him be the guy standing out in the road patting down the pashtuns for bombs for the next year or two.

bcglorf
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Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

Seems right

Post by bcglorf »

evaitl wrote:Something missed in all of this is the leaker.

Even though the shooting looks justified to me, whenever this stuff is leaked it incites the bad guys and gets more Americans killed.

If they catch the leaker, I think a useful punishment would be to bust him to private, put him in the scariest FOB we have and make him be the guy standing out in the road patting down the pashtuns for bombs for the next year or two.
Sounds about right to me. I've always thought the military is place where the punishment comes closest to fitting the crime. Sending a guy/gal that made the situation on the ground more dangerous can quite appropriately be put out front and center on that ground. Of course, the guys involved at Abu Grhaib deserve much worse, and sooner. And the ones that brought that to light deserve promotion. And the media deserves to be executed on every last one of those counts and many more for misinforming the public everywhere about pretty near everything... I'll stop ranting now.

In summary, agreed.

EricF
Posts: 204
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Location: Pell City, Alabama

Post by EricF »

MSimon wrote:
And now. Cue up the blood lust music:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... aiser.html
dude! Freakin Epic song. Makes me want to quit my job and go down to a recruiters office right now. I wonder if they need more Apache gunners?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

EricF wrote:
MSimon wrote:
And now. Cue up the blood lust music:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... aiser.html
dude! Freakin Epic song. Makes me want to quit my job and go down to a recruiters office right now. I wonder if they need more Apache gunners?
You lack the requisite attitude. And faking it for 5 minutes will not get you through boot camp.

Image

from:

http://www.thesniper.us/?p=6466


Thanks to Diogenes who brought it to my attention.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

EricF
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Location: Pell City, Alabama

Post by EricF »

MSimon wrote: You lack the requisite attitude. And faking it for 5 minutes will not get you through boot camp.
I think I'll be the judge of that :wink:

MirariNefas
Posts: 354
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Post by MirariNefas »

Saddam was killing 3,000 to 7,000 of his people each month. And you are hand wringing over reporters hanging out with targets? Spare me.
Funnily enough, I wasn't. I didn't say I cared about the reporter at all.

I'm surprised I got such a negative reaction. I'm saying that it's inhuman to want someone to be bad just so you can kill him. That's controversial? You guys are sick.

JLawson
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Post by JLawson »

MirariNefas wrote:
Saddam was killing 3,000 to 7,000 of his people each month. And you are hand wringing over reporters hanging out with targets? Spare me.
Funnily enough, I wasn't. I didn't say I cared about the reporter at all.

I'm surprised I got such a negative reaction. I'm saying that it's inhuman to want someone to be bad just so you can kill him. That's controversial? You guys are sick.
Try looking at it from another point of view, instead of 'wanting someone to be bad just so you could kill him'.

These were the bad guys. (Or, in a postmodernist sense, gentlemen of unconventional morality who had taken to unorthodox means to make their perceived world a better one.) There is little if any indication that ol' Akbar the generic terrorist, after a close shave with people who he's trying diligently to kill but aren't exactly obliging to his desires, is suddenly going to toss aside his AK-47 and go "Sod this. My uncle's used camel lot needs another detailer. This just isn't fun any more."

No - instead he's going to go "Allah be praised! I must have been saved for some SPECIAL thing! What can I do to earn my virgins in a worthy manner?" He'll go, find some good explosive underwear, and find a nice crowd to go to pieces in. Or try some other spectacular way to kill his targets or innocents, as many as possible. Because that's what he believes Allah wants.

He will, if he keeps up with his current career, die or be killed. The question ends up being how many more should he be allowed to kill, not whether the soldiers are the bad guys for hoping for an excuse to finish the job now, instead of later after he may have killed more civilians or other soldiers.

These aren't misplaced angels looking for the light - they're folks who would cut your throat in a heartbeat if they saw some sort of advantage to it. If you're a woman, unprotected and unburquaed, you'd be raped and then your throat cut. Is it possible they'll change one day? Maybe - if Iraq becomes prosperous enough and they realize that there's no hope of attaining their goals. But until then, they're doing what they can to make sure Iraq NEVER gets to that point.

Your compassion is laudable. But in my humble opinion, badly misplaced.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

EricF wrote:
MSimon wrote: You lack the requisite attitude. And faking it for 5 minutes will not get you through boot camp.
I think I'll be the judge of that :wink:
Let me know when you ship out.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

That picture is great Msimon!
I think I will make a poster and put it up on my wall ;)

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

One thing that I never understood about the US military is the horrible way they treat recruits. It almost seems like they want to break someones character for some reason. I heard that even in Westpoint they have ensigns stand up during dinner and make completely pointless reports instead of quietly eating. This is not the way things have ever been handled here. Here we (even during Hitler) try to strengthen peoples characters, not break them.

EricF
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:52 pm
Location: Pell City, Alabama

Post by EricF »

Skipjack wrote:One thing that I never understood about the US military is the horrible way they treat recruits. It almost seems like they want to break someones character for some reason. I heard that even in Westpoint they have ensigns stand up during dinner and make completely pointless reports instead of quietly eating. This is not the way things have ever been handled here. Here we (even during Hitler) try to strengthen peoples characters, not break them.
I think the entire point of that is to instill discipline and get soldiers used to doing what they are told.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

I think the entire point of that is to instill discipline and get soldiers used to doing what they are told.
By breaking their character?
That never happened in our military, not even among the Nazis (and they were pretty bad, from what I get).
I dont see the point in breaking a person. It does not result in a better soldier. You know the kind that thinks on his own and does not shoot innocents if he is told to.
After WW2, we put a little more thought into that too ;)

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