If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

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Skipjack
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby Skipjack » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:07 pm


hanelyp
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby hanelyp » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:01 pm

A UAV can potentially pull maneuvers that would kill a pilot. Including high G turns, or deliberately crashing into a high value target that gets too close. I've heard of air to air missiles making turns that a manned aircraft can't match. A drone designed to dogfight might make turns tight enough that the missile can't follow. Given an ability to make such tight turns, high speed and large ammunition load aren't needed to present a challenge.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby ladajo » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:01 pm

If it can match turns with the incoming, it can run it out of gas.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
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Betruger
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby Betruger » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:43 am

I have to stop thinking about this or I'll be crunching numbers and coding up sims instead of sleeping. Haha.

I'm still really curious if there really isn't an order of magnitude advantage (ie clear superiority) for a high speed gun run vs mere evasives by slow drones. Or can drones have enough speed (i.e. and still do their job) to factor a kill solution out of shooter's reach just by maneuvering out of the way? It just seems really incredible from gut feeling. That a gun solution like I described couldn't strike a single hit which IIRC with modern guns is effectively a kill.

ladajo
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby ladajo » Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:17 pm

Today's drones you can gun. Tomorrow's, probably getting much less likely.

Current drones are flown in a secure environment, or have the ability to ghost in and out.

Tomorrow's drones will assist more directly in establishing air superiority.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

GIThruster
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby GIThruster » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:06 am

Modern air to air combat is not designed around the use of guns. Most of it is supposed to happen out of sight. Both the F-22 and the F-35 are designed to fly into radar contact, fire missiles and fly away before they are lit. So guns never make it into the equation.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby paperburn1 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:47 pm

Here is a very good piece on the subject.
https://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/98-210.pdf
It brings into the equation EW and WEZ of weapons platforms. Its is a short read and highly entertaining (At least to us air-frame geeks) :lol:
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby ladajo » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:18 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby paperburn1 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:16 pm

But of course you could saturate the EW environment so you would be in a visual IFF mode, and there you are Back to GUNS. (not very likely I admit but possible. ) Besides if we stop teaching 1v1 and 2v1 skills I will be out of a job!!!!!
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

GIThruster
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby GIThruster » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:39 pm

"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

paperburn1
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:43 pm

This is one verses one and two verses one , air combat maneuvering and close air combat maneuvering. The company I work for has simulation contracts for the AV8-B the EA6-B KC130J and others. We teach air to air , air to ground tactics along with the marine instructors. We also have a few navy contracts as well.
Best job in the world (sometimes it sucks as well)
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

DeltaV
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby DeltaV » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:44 pm

Drones of decadent West stand no chance against Russian flyink tanks.

Image

ladajo
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby ladajo » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:48 pm

Looks like the gun system auto-leveling was off again. Curses.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby Skipjack » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:31 pm


paperburn1
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:39 pm

:D :D I was a poet and did not know it!
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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