If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

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Skipjack
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by Skipjack »

Betruger wrote:
Skipjack wrote:They might be able to get close and use their cannons (if they have one), but that will be much more difficult.
I'm just saying... And as far as you know I'm just some internet dude, but that really sounds like the sort of problem that as a former gung-ho engineering student I would dream of being tasked to. If the UAV is not evading, it definitely sounds feasible to have a semi-automated (control surfaces + flexible gun mount) aiming process for very high speed low ammunition kill solution.
Sure, but getting close might be difficult and then the UAV might just do a suicide or crazy Ivan of sorts and kill the plane chasing it in the process. Another advantage of UAVs.

hanelyp
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by hanelyp »

A UAV can potentially pull maneuvers that would kill a pilot. Including high G turns, or deliberately crashing into a high value target that gets too close. I've heard of air to air missiles making turns that a manned aircraft can't match. A drone designed to dogfight might make turns tight enough that the missile can't follow. Given an ability to make such tight turns, high speed and large ammunition load aren't needed to present a challenge.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

ladajo
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by ladajo »

If it can match turns with the incoming, it can run it out of gas.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
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Betruger
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by Betruger »

I have to stop thinking about this or I'll be crunching numbers and coding up sims instead of sleeping. Haha.

I'm still really curious if there really isn't an order of magnitude advantage (ie clear superiority) for a high speed gun run vs mere evasives by slow drones. Or can drones have enough speed (i.e. and still do their job) to factor a kill solution out of shooter's reach just by maneuvering out of the way? It just seems really incredible from gut feeling. That a gun solution like I described couldn't strike a single hit which IIRC with modern guns is effectively a kill.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

ladajo
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by ladajo »

Today's drones you can gun. Tomorrow's, probably getting much less likely.

Current drones are flown in a secure environment, or have the ability to ghost in and out.

Tomorrow's drones will assist more directly in establishing air superiority.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

GIThruster
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by GIThruster »

Modern air to air combat is not designed around the use of guns. Most of it is supposed to happen out of sight. Both the F-22 and the F-35 are designed to fly into radar contact, fire missiles and fly away before they are lit. So guns never make it into the equation.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

paperburn1
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by paperburn1 »

Here is a very good piece on the subject.
https://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/98-210.pdf
It brings into the equation EW and WEZ of weapons platforms. Its is a short read and highly entertaining (At least to us air-frame geeks) :lol:
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by ladajo »

GIThruster wrote:Modern air to air combat is not designed around the use of guns. Most of it is supposed to happen out of sight. Both the F-22 and the F-35 are designed to fly into radar contact, fire missiles and fly away before they are lit. So guns never make it into the equation.
Yes I agree, air engagments are planned around stand off. However, guns are still mounted, and current drones have a hard time seeing an attack coming, let alone maneuvering to avoid. A missile would be an easier kill, but could well cost more than the drone it is dropping. And after all, war is about resources and will. Where resources tend to trump will in the aggregate.

Future air combat drones are being built to support the missile fight.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by paperburn1 »

But of course you could saturate the EW environment so you would be in a visual IFF mode, and there you are Back to GUNS. (not very likely I admit but possible. ) Besides if we stop teaching 1v1 and 2v1 skills I will be out of a job!!!!!
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

GIThruster
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by GIThruster »

paperburn1 wrote:Besides if we stop teaching 1v1 and 2v1 skills I will be out of a job!!!!!
What are these skills?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

paperburn1
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by paperburn1 »

This is one verses one and two verses one , air combat maneuvering and close air combat maneuvering. The company I work for has simulation contracts for the AV8-B the EA6-B KC130J and others. We teach air to air , air to ground tactics along with the marine instructors. We also have a few navy contracts as well.
Best job in the world (sometimes it sucks as well)
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

DeltaV
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by DeltaV »

Drones of decadent West stand no chance against Russian flyink tanks.

Image

ladajo
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by ladajo »

Looks like the gun system auto-leveling was off again. Curses.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by Skipjack »

paperburn1 wrote:This is one versus one and two versus one , air combat maneuvering and close air combat maneuvering. The company I work for has simulation contracts for the AV8-B the EA6-B KC130J and others. We teach air to air , air to ground tactics along with the marine instructors. We also have a few navy contracts as well.
Best job in the world (sometimes it sucks as well)
Fixed it for you. Cool job, though!

paperburn1
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Re: If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

Post by paperburn1 »

:D :D I was a poet and did not know it!
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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