Go Navy!

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paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:47 am

Any thoughts on the possibility of a bad actor playing with shipboard navigation as a weapon?
I would think military ships would be fairly immune but I don't think they use AIS.
but commercial freight has been hacked numerous times on a weekly basis for the past few months and is highly dependent on AIS.
Mad hatter scenario: reprogram route for a collision and turn off the alarm, everything looks fine until impact
AIS
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/centery:25.0/zoom:4
and this is the free stuff :D
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Tom Ligon » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:58 pm

There's some preliminary talk that says they had a steering problem.

The damage this time looks like they were T-boned.

I've seen the propulsion system of the Arleigh Burkes, but don't know much about the control systems.

China is presently calling the US Navy a hazard to navigation in the area. It is not out of the question that they set it up somehow to support their claims to ownership of the South China Sea. If they could get the Navy banned from certain waters in Asia, that would benefit them. Kim would also enjoy doing something like that, possibly positioning some poor NK worker to be at the helm of the tanker, but hacking the steering of a US destroyer is a stretch for him (I hope).

Let the investigation roll. All we have at the moment is neat movie plot scenarios. Like as not this will have some disappointingly mundane explanation involving distraction by a cell phone, or some comparable stupidity.

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:02 pm

While I can not speak for the present navy (start old sea story) we had both marines and sailors as watch standers. Usually a Marine was paired with a navy guy and he showed us the ropes. Mainly to keep us out of trouble, nothing worse than a bored Marine on ship. I seem to remember fore and aft and midship watches with the old mark one eyeball. And a direct line to duty in case you saw something.(end sea story) Steering problems seem far fetched when this has been the fourth ship severely damaged in as many months. I am counting the grounding at speed in that area as well. In AIS your not supose to track navy ships without the paid version. I was able to get around that little problem in five minutes. As for getting two ships to hit just a boat with a gps spoof and a tight beam antenna / transmitter and I can steer you where I want you to go. Maybe its time to bring back old school navigators.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Tom Ligon » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:28 pm

paperburn1 wrote:. Maybe its time to bring back old school navigators.


The very topic of recent LinkedIn feed I got this week.

Civilian GPS is fairly straightforward to spoof. Military GPS is supposed to be much harder. Certainly possible, but if it is being done, we'd need to be looking for the theft of keys. I've taken part in testing these things ... I spent a lot of time in the halls as they enabled stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective ... ing_module

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:53 pm

All they have to get is the civilian side :(
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Tom Ligon » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:38 pm

Not my favorite news source, but on-topic ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... stars.html

ladajo
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby ladajo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:55 am

Sorry kids, can't comment more in depth for now. I am busy in Annapolis this week.
In short, I think the root is more cultural than anything. A number of years back we did away with a core part of the Surface Warfare Officer training pipeline, the Division Officer Course. This went on for a while, and the folks out there now in senior positions are a product of SWO DVDs and the Entitled Generation. They missed some key points about the drudgery of being a SWO and how that underpinned the triad of Responsibility, Authority, and Accountability. What these folks prefer to focus on is the second without the first and last. The end result, shitty ship cultures where procedures and policies are "guidelines". These collisions do not surprise me, and have been predicted to be coming for some time.
Fortunately, more sane minds prevailed and have moved to reinstate DIVO, as well as to have training and certs be more than 'box checking' admin drills.
When I was out certifying ships I made sure they understood fundamentals and the gravity of screwing shit up while seeking convenience over quality.
One of my long standing pet peeves was securing for sea (combat). Shock ratings are only as good as the sailors who secure the gear. And shock is the first thing that will take you out of the fight.
/end rant/
I hope they fry the ALL shitheads who were on watch, AND the dipshits who qualified and certified them.
On another note, most all warships have a blind spot on NAV RADAR astern. So if you are driving a merchant up from abaft the beam, especially overtaking, there is a good chance the only tracking is from the lookouts. As for AIS, all warships have it, however not many sailors pay attention to it.

Meh.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:29 am

Claims of a dual steering failure. Hmmm I can remember doing GQ drills onboard ship literally all day because we screwed up and could not shave the required ten seconds off to meet Condition zebra in time. I also remember doing lifeboat musters all day after leaving Rota because we only had 50 percent participation first drill because of bottle flu. We got to 100 percent by supper. (old fart rant) I have a hard time believing that things have gotten that lax but then again I still work in flight training and we are constantly hammering these guys for gouge and unofficial publications. Even such simple things as do not eat/drink at the console use the table right behind you will get the stink eye from the stud. You can always tell the ones your going to bury or jerk their wings. Its not the corps I belonged too things are different.(end old fart rant)
That being said The US Navy intends to remove Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin as the commander of the US 7th Fleet, based in Yokosuka, Japan. so something big came up so far in the course of investigation. The ship supposedly passed seaboard certification trials in May
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby ladajo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:16 pm

Forward Deployed Naval Force (FDNF) do not follow the same path / process for certs as stateside units. They have a higher OPTEMPO, and undergo rolling certs as a result. These, in my view, have become admin drills.
I know the CO of the ship, Joe Aucoin, and Notso Swift. They are all good guys. They are also fighting an existing system based on budget bean counting designed to create failures. This is an ongoing aspect of the misguided idea you can run a navy, or military for that matter, as a corporate entity with civilian based HR policies and practice, Six-Sigma, and other "cost cutting / profit enhancing" concepts. A Navy does not turn a profit, by purpose and construct it will always be a loss entity. Corporate Navy is part of the problem.

I do know the steering system on Burkes, and other ships. It takes some effort to lose steering control, and not be able to restore it. And if the ship was in a Restricted Maneuvering configuration, which it should have been given its location, it makes it even harder, if not impossible.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:31 pm

I heard a rumor that CO of the ship, Joe Aucoin, was dropping his papers soon anyway.
They also say if it happens once its an bad luck, twice it was a accident, three times and you got a problem.
I am sure money is a factor , we are one step away from the hurt locker as far as repairs on our planes go. Currently we are RIP for two of the same piece of gear with no clear date on replacement unless we rob the fleet reserves. :oops: You just cant have a low tempo war for 16 years without taking a few hits. But things can happen, I was on the USS Nassau one time and we went dead in the water though a perfect series of events, something that should have never happened but it did. It was scarry as sh!t for a few minutes, I never heard a ship so quiet. Blew both boilers though the stack and then backup gen did not come on line for 15- twenty minutes. took quite a while to get forward speed again.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby ladajo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:03 pm

VADM Joe Aucoin is 7th Fleet. Alfredo Sanchez is the CO (Soon to be X-CO) of the McCain. Haven't seen Alfredo in few years. I would guess about six.
I just saw Aucoin about two weeks ago. World moves fast.

The planets can align and shit happens. Usually, on ship, when you dig a little and take a broader view, an apparent planet alignment is actually a cultural issue based in something or a lack of something. These days it is, in my opinion, lack of resource support and mission demands creating shortfalls and complacency in requirements driven by a 'do more with less' culture. This has been brewing for a few years as a systematic failure. I am not sure we have yet seen the peak.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

TDPerk
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby TDPerk » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:38 pm

ladajo wrote:VADM Joe Aucoin is 7th Fleet. Alfredo Sanchez is the CO (Soon to be X-CO) of the McCain. Haven't seen Alfredo in few years. I would guess about six.
I just saw Aucoin about two weeks ago. World moves fast.

The planets can align and shit happens. Usually, on ship, when you dig a little and take a broader view, an apparent planet alignment is actually a cultural issue based in something or a lack of something. These days it is, in my opinion, lack of resource support and mission demands creating shortfalls and complacency in requirements driven by a 'do more with less' culture. This has been brewing for a few years as a systematic failure. I am not sure we have yet seen the peak.


http://disq.us/p/1lklvhy

And then click the bubble with the comment count. The linked to comment is by "Dad-All-Day".

Or

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/273578/ ... 3481184950
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:22 pm

water cooler talk strikes again, shows what I know.
:D :D :D
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Tom Ligon » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:12 pm

Is this a matter of moving in a new admiral and supporting staff with expertise in cleaning up a bad culture?

I have worked at places where they tried to do a pep talk to fix a problem, but we knew they had no way to back real change. One of those had a coup to out the old company president. The CFO led the proxy fight, but she was worse than he was. As the second bankruptcy approached, I bailed. The company ended up owned by the landlord, who tried to make a go of it (the building was custom-made for that company and he would have had a hard time doing anything else with it). The company is now completely gone. The culture was rotten but changing it could not fix the underlying lack of business viability.

The old CFO later stole from a charity and wound up doing time in a federal prison.

By leaving, I became available just when R. W. Bussard was getting EMC2 up and running again, so the failure of the company was good for me.

ladajo
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby ladajo » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:29 am

TDPerk, thanks for the link. And Yup, exactly what I was talking about. As I have said before, we have been robbing Peter to pay Paul for a long time. And some time ago, Peter was out of things to steal.

Tom, unfortunately no. The new guy on deck will do some PA strutting, and no real change will occur, as the issue is out of his control. He will quickly revert to duck and cover after a couple of Glossy Photo Ops and Press Releases about how things are serious and will be addressed. In the Fine Naval Tradition of Re-label to Obfuscate lack of change, he will motor forward with a couple of cool sounding 'new programs and policies', which are in fact the same old shit renamed.
The real power to change this lays with Congress and the Executive Branch to un-fuck funding for DoD. Then it lays with CNO(OPNAV), and the Type Commands to do their freakin' job and Man, Equip, and Train. Guys like Joe Aucoin, who are forward warfighting commanders have ZERO control over Man, Equip, and Train. The next layer is PACFLT (Really C3F), USFF (the Uber C2F) working with the Type Commanders like SURFOR. In fact, one of the first changes for the better would be to deep six USFF, re-establish LANTFLT (controlling and re-established C2F, and C6F). Then, put Man, Equip, and Training and Certs for Basic Phase under full control of the Type Commander (SURFOR, via SURFPAC and SURFLANT). Then hand the unit off to PACFLT (C3F) and LANTFLT (C2F) for Integrated Phase and Deployment Certs. For those who are "Surge Ready" or Sustainment Phase, they remain under C2F / C3F control, until they expire, or head to the yards, and are returned OPCON to the Type Commands. The only gap this leaves is adjudication of GEF, which should be managed by OPNAV, and not punted to a made up command like USFF. OPNAV has become too focused on politics, and not on running the navy.

But they won't.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)


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