Go Navy!

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Diogenes
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Diogenes » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:23 pm

I have a Navy question.



In 1861, what was the difference in rank between the Captain of a Ship and a Navy Lieutenant?
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:12 pm

The highest rank available to an American naval officer when the war began was that of captain. (The Confederate constitution provided for the rank of admiral, but it was to be awarded for valor in battle. ) This created problems when many ships had to operate together, with no clearly established chain of command. Even worse, when the Navy worked with the Army in joint operations, the customary rank equivalency between the two services meant that the naval captain, equivalent to an army colonel, would always be inferior to every army general present. After the existing arrangement had been used for the first year of the war, the case was made that the interests of the nation would be better served by organizing the Navy along lines more like that of the Royal Navy of Great Britain. A set of officer ranks was established in the summer of 1862 that precisely matched the set of Army ranks. The most visible change was that henceforth some individuals would be designated commodore, rear admiral, vice admiral, and finally admiral, all new formal ranks, and equivalent to, respectively, brigadier general, major general, lieutenant general, and general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Navy Has the total rank structure.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Diogenes
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Diogenes » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:52 pm

paperburn1 wrote:The highest rank available to an American naval officer when the war began was that of captain. (The Confederate constitution provided for the rank of admiral, but it was to be awarded for valor in battle. ) This created problems when many ships had to operate together, with no clearly established chain of command. Even worse, when the Navy worked with the Army in joint operations, the customary rank equivalency between the two services meant that the naval captain, equivalent to an army colonel, would always be inferior to every army general present. After the existing arrangement had been used for the first year of the war, the case was made that the interests of the nation would be better served by organizing the Navy along lines more like that of the Royal Navy of Great Britain. A set of officer ranks was established in the summer of 1862 that precisely matched the set of Army ranks. The most visible change was that henceforth some individuals would be designated commodore, rear admiral, vice admiral, and finally admiral, all new formal ranks, and equivalent to, respectively, brigadier general, major general, lieutenant general, and general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Navy Has the total rank structure.



Thanks for that. That wikipedia page indicates that a Lieutenant is quite a ways lower in rank than a Captain, but it does not make it clear if this was the case in 1861. Presumably this is the rank system they developed in 1862.

I did find this, and it indicates that a lieutenant rank is at least two ranks away from Captain, and possibly as many as four ranks away from Captain, depending on the specifics.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Tom Ligon
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Tom Ligon » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:21 pm

Navy Captain is supposed to be about the same as Army Colonel.

You can be skipper of a ship without being Captain. An interesting case study in Navy rank is the career of David Farragut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Farragut

His first command of a Naval vessel was at age 12. He was a Midshipman on the Essex in the War of 1812, and was given command of a prize ship, giving him the position of prize master. He rose thru the ranks and became the first US Admiral.

He was best known for "darn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead." Not those words exactly, because the forum has a filter that changes the first word.

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:12 am

Basically what you said without the lingo
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fat ... ocid=ientp



ladajo wrote:TDPerk, thanks for the link. And Yup, exactly what I was talking about. As I have said before, we have been robbing Peter to pay Paul for a long time. And some time ago, Peter was out of things to steal.

Tom, unfortunately no. The new guy on deck will do some PA strutting, and no real change will occur, as the issue is out of his control. He will quickly revert to duck and cover after a couple of Glossy Photo Ops and Press Releases about how things are serious and will be addressed. In the Fine Naval Tradition of Re-label to Obfuscate lack of change, he will motor forward with a couple of cool sounding 'new programs and policies', which are in fact the same old shit renamed.
The real power to change this lays with Congress and the Executive Branch to un-fuck funding for DoD. Then it lays with CNO(OPNAV), and the Type Commands to do their freakin' job and Man, Equip, and Train. Guys like Joe Aucoin, who are forward warfighting commanders have ZERO control over Man, Equip, and Train. The next layer is PACFLT (Really C3F), USFF (the Uber C2F) working with the Type Commanders like SURFOR. In fact, one of the first changes for the better would be to deep six USFF, re-establish LANTFLT (controlling and re-established C2F, and C6F). Then, put Man, Equip, and Training and Certs for Basic Phase under full control of the Type Commander (SURFOR, via SURFPAC and SURFLANT). Then hand the unit off to PACFLT (C3F) and LANTFLT (C2F) for Integrated Phase and Deployment Certs. For those who are "Surge Ready" or Sustainment Phase, they remain under C2F / C3F control, until they expire, or head to the yards, and are returned OPCON to the Type Commands. The only gap this leaves is adjudication of GEF, which should be managed by OPNAV, and not punted to a made up command like USFF. OPNAV has become too focused on politics, and not on running the navy.

But they won't.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby ladajo » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:34 pm

Another article discussing the broader issue, and provides more details on what I was talking about:

Surface Warfare Drama Root Causes - Part I
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:59 am

Officially..... the military must maintain the highest level of conduct and this is unacceptable.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... in-the-sky

unofficially...... this is a million times better than any prank I pulled when I was in the service. I am impressed, if I was him I would claim a O2 failure made me have a hypoxic lack of judgment

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... rs-t-21177
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ltgbrown
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby ltgbrown » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:16 pm

While I might not support the result, one has to acknowledge the planning and skill required to produce a recognizable figure. However, I am guessing fuel dump was used, bringing the environmental issues into play in characterizing this stunt of significant airmanship!

R
Glenn
Retired (proud) Naval Aviator
Famous last words, "Hey, watch this!"

ladajo
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby ladajo » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:17 pm

I suspect you are correct. And, maybe they should have popped some flares once the maneuver was completed. A giant flaming penis would have been talked about for 1,000 years...
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Betruger
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Betruger » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:29 pm

A sight for sore eyes.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

Taliesin
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby Taliesin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:06 am

Imagine a Navy equipped with this tech if it comes to fruition.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 192754.htm

A Gerald R.Ford carrier with its 700MW power plant and minimal drag or submarines with minimal drag.

It would definitely require a strategy rethink.

paperburn1
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:39 pm

I suppose it had to happen but are they really getting at the root cause of the problem?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1F6017
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: Go Navy!

Postby ladajo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:52 pm

Nope. While there is a responsibility at the command level, the real root lays above them in my opinion. However, I don't expect any time soon for C3F, ATGPAC, SURFPAC, or USFF to fall on their culpable swords.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:09 pm

ladajo wrote:Nope. While there is a responsibility at the command level, the real root lays above them in my opinion. However, I don't expect any time soon for C3F, ATGPAC, SURFPAC, or USFF to fall on their culpable swords.



I have to agree with you,we seem to be having a similar problem on the green side of the house.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

paperburn1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: Go Navy!

Postby paperburn1 » Sat May 05, 2018 11:41 pm

Hey guys, it looks like they are getting the band back together. 8)

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/38635 ... a-tensions
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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