Nuclear Reactors Hit By Earthquake In Japan

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bcglorf
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Post by bcglorf »

ANTIcarrot wrote:Just to play devil's advocate here...

It's all very well saying, "Oh, but the house collapsed so well!" but the client paid for a house that is supposed to stand upright. Ultimately BWRs are supposed to produce electricity. Four cores in fewer days have fallen over, and are not producing electricity, and probably won't ever again. Even if we scrub out the N word, that is still a very bad thing in and of itself.

The problem is that the nuclear industry has a nasty tendency to act like NASA (making it up as you go along) when we want them to behave like Airbus or Boeing. We want nuclear power to be reliable and safe by OUR standards, not yours. When claims like, "Of course Nuclear Power is safe!" we don't want to find out after an accident like this that you meant *active* safety, not passive. If something is only safe for as long as conditions are perfect, then it isn't safe.

It's difficult to trust an industry that complains about greenpeace when two of its buildings explode[/]. If the third one goes as well (as some are now saying it might) are these still well designed? Oh yes, and $2 billion plus of kit has just slagged itself; and not in a terrible eligent fashion.

When exactly does it become the industry's fault?


It's all very well saying, "Oh, but the house collapsed so well!" but the client paid for a house that is supposed to stand upright.

Yes, let's talk about those 10's of thousands of house that people paid to have standing upright. Those houses are now all wiped out and washed out to see. You should direct your wrath at the residential housing industry first, it's killed thousands of people in Japan thanks to their defective designs and construction.

Or is it utterly insane to complain when buildings have troubles surviving the strongest earthquake in a nations recorded history?

For the record, Japan's nuclear facilities look on track to limit the damages from the damage to their systems to remaining on-site, with few injuries, and virtually no casualties. Find any other industrial complex along Japan's coast that can say the same.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

I still have issue with the Pressure Relief description. I took a look at the Brave New World links, and they are missing that the Reactor Vessel relieves pressure to teh Suppression Well (Torus). That would accumulate H2 there. The Torus is in turn pressure vented to the Drywell in a overpressure condition by automatic vents. You can vent the Torus to atmosphere, and it would appear that they did. The question I can not answer is where the discharge point is. If it is inside the structure, ok that can explain the blast. But the blast can also originate inside the Torus or Containment (as it did at TMI-2).
Looking at the satellite shot of the after for Untis 1 & 3. It appears that Unit 1 is intact. However, Unit 3 is significantly more damaged. Could be that Unit 1 did have an external pop, while Unit 3 sourced from internal.

Time will tell.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Unit 2 popped. They are reporting damage indications in the Suppression Pool Torus.

Clean up is going to be a bitch.

Maui
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Post by Maui »

I read they were evacuating workers due to high radiation. I assume they have to have at least some workers on site to continue with the containment operation? Radiation now detected in Tokyo. That won't panic anyone...

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Not unless Godzilla shows up...

They have a tiered system for who stays based on the accident, and exposure rates.

They will also be implementing Burn Out protocols so they can save key personel for use later in the recovery/cleanup phase.

The issue is that any given worker can only receive so much exposure. They will now be managing this to be sure that they have the correct skills (certs) on hand when needed.

The other issue here is that as the core slags, it significantly up ticks the Fission Products being introduced into cooling(flooding) efforts. This in turn will drive up particulate as it gets entrained in the steam venting. What they really need right now is a major rain storm. It would actually really help out.

Maui
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Post by Maui »

I know the media has been fanning this story to ridiculous proportions compared to the devastation the tsunami has already wrought, but you have to admit it would be downright terrifying to live in the vicinity but have no gas to go anywhere:
http://blogs.forbes.com/neilweinberg/20 ... -mounting/

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

They are not going to be having any picnics for a while on Plant grounds. Cesium and Iodine are not good substitutes for salt and pepper.

icarus
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Post by icarus »

This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power
generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did
not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not
be carried away any more.
and this why the allies won the war ... if they couldn't do a work around for an electrical "plug that didn't fit" in the time of extreme crises they are idiots ...

... also I read somewhere the reactor two wasn't containing the emergency coolant being pumped in, it was leaking continually out of a crack in the bottom, and the mobile pump they'd bought in had "run out of fuel" ...


... electrical plugs that don't fit and running out of fuel ... get some else in there who can work around problems ... ffs, where's the duct tape guys?[/quote]

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

These cores have slag, the authorities are still in the slow build up to admitting it.
Once it gets hot enough for the Zircalloy to fail (H2 gas, Cesium & Iodine, etc), slag is not far behind in the timeline.
It will be a long while before post accident analysis tells us how much melt there is.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/f ... 011_dg.jpg

See the steam? That is Containment damage.

Maui
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Post by Maui »

ladajo wrote: http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/f ... 011_dg.jpg

See the steam? That is Containment damage.
So those are containment buildings 1 & 3 that are leveled, yes? And #2 is the one that is supposedly leaking now? After the #3 blast they suggested everything was secure... do you think they were wrong/lying?

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Looks like Unit 1 more or less held together, but it is hard to know what the internal structure looks like. However, the Containment cap is in place.

Unit 3 is major damage. The steam you see is Containment failure.

Unit 2, so far no photos have surfaced. Probably DigitalGlobe will do another run by tomorrow. If it followed a similar failure mode as Unit 3 (it is an identical plant, other than the MOX fuel), it may look similar.

dch24
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Post by dch24 »

icarus wrote:and this why the allies won the war ... if they couldn't do a work around for an electrical "plug that didn't fit" in the time of extreme crises they are idiots ...

... also I read somewhere the reactor two wasn't containing the emergency coolant being pumped in, it was leaking continually out of a crack in the bottom, and the mobile pump they'd bought in had "run out of fuel" ...


... electrical plugs that don't fit and running out of fuel ... get some else in there who can work around problems ... ffs, where's the duct tape guys?
Although I agree with you... don't tell me it doesn't fit, MAKE IT FIT.

... that's all well and good, but earlier in this thread it was suggested that the electrical lines are below water now. So they can't plug in the generators brought in -- they'd just arc through the dirty water.

Well, fine. Get some pumps in here. Drain the water and clean up one of the flooded generators that were already on site, running, when the tsunami hit.

And while you're at it, drill into the power somewhere above water and get me a socket to plug in to.

That said, I personally am furious at the media outlets across the globe that are talking on and on about this. Shut down the video feed and put up a donations link. Send your "brave" reporters in to get their hands dirty and deliver needed aid.

Make it work. It cuts both ways, don't it?

Maui
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Post by Maui »

dch24 wrote:That said, I personally am furious at the media outlets across the globe that are talking on and on about this. Shut down the video feed and put up a donations link. Send your "brave" reporters in to get their hands dirty and deliver needed aid.
I'll disagree with that. Its natural to think this way, but I think its vitally important for many reasons that journalists don't do this. Maybe the most important in this case is that the support drummed up by a single reporter's reporting far outweighs the benefit that reporter could provide by "getting their hands dirty".

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Well, so far the radiation levels reported are still not that high. But they are worrysome. They have reached 400 mSievert per hour. That is a signifficant amount, but nowhere deadly yet.

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