A responce to CoolbruceLong

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Axil
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

A responce to CoolbruceLong

Post by Axil »

This post was moved from the News section

@Coolbrucelong

As a puppet of the rich and powerful, it pleases me to explain who pulls your strings.

Image

It will be interesting to layout to you where and how you get your libertarian ideals from and more generally how those ideals find perches in American thought.

In American politics, follow the money to find the roots for the foundations of political power. In more detail, the Koch brothers are the arch political enemies of POTUS Obama.

It was the Koch brothers who envisioned and funded the start of the tea party. In Washington, Koch is best known as part of a family that has repeatedly funded stealth attacks on the federal government, and on the Obama Administration in particular.


The Tea party has been formed to destroy Obama, and if they take down the economy of the country, destroys your 401k, and drags you into destitution and into the streets, so be it.

As icarus states, sometimes you need to destroy a thing before it can be rebuilt even better than before.


With his brother Charles, who is seventy-four, David Koch owns virtually all of Koch Industries, a conglomerate, headquartered in Wichita, Kansas, whose annual revenues are estimated to be a hundred billion dollars. The company has grown spectacularly since their father, Fred, died, in 1967, and the brothers took charge.


The Kochs operate oil refineries in Alaska, Texas, and Minnesota, and control some four thousand miles of pipeline. Koch Industries owns Brawny paper towels, Dixie cups, Georgia-Pacific lumber, Stainmaster carpet, and Lycra, among other products. Forbes ranks it as the second-largest private company in the country, after Cargill, and its consistent profitability has made David and Charles Koch—who, years ago, bought out two other brothers—among the richest men in America. Their combined fortune of thirty-five billion dollars is exceeded only by those of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.


The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lowered personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers’ corporate interests. In a study released this spring, the University of Massachusetts at Amherst’s Political Economy Research Institute named Koch Industries as one of the top ten air polluters in the United States. And Greenpeace issued a report identifying the company as a “kingpin of climate science denial.” The report showed that, from 2005 to 2008, the Kochs vastly outdid ExxonMobil in giving money to organizations fighting legislation related to climate change, underwriting a huge network of foundations, think tanks, and political front groups. Indeed, the brothers have funded opposition campaigns against so many Obama Administration policies—from health-care reform to the economic-stimulus program—that, in political circles, their ideological network is known as the Kochtopus.


In a statement, Koch Industries said that the Greenpeace report “distorts the environmental record of our companies.” And David Koch, in a recent, admiring article about him in New York, protested that the “radical press” had turned his family into “whipping boys,” and had exaggerated its influence on American politics. But Charles Lewis, the founder of the Center for Public Integrity, a nonpartisan watchdog group, said, “The Kochs are on a whole different level. There’s no one else who has spent this much money. The sheer dimension of it is what sets them apart. They have a pattern of lawbreaking, political manipulation, and obfuscation. I’ve been in Washington since Watergate, and I’ve never seen anything like it. They are the Standard Oil of our times.”


At the end of July, the Kochs and his friends picked their man to defeat Oboma this election cycle. Gov. Perry traveled to Colorado to speak at a shadowy conservative gathering hosted by the Koch brothers.


Perry spokesman Mark Miner described the Colorado summit as a "private gathering of business leaders". The guest list was kept secret and organizers wouldn't say where the four-day retreat was held beyond describing it as in the general vicinity of Vail.


"It's not entirely clear how Perry got to Colorado, but a plane owned by aircraft dealer Goldsmith Team LLC flew from Aspen to Georgetown on Sunday, flight records show," the Austin American-Statesman's Jason Embry reports. Goldsmith Team LLC made more than $25,000 worth of in-kind contributions to Perry's 2010 re-election campaign.


This is how Rick Perry operates. He owes huge favors to the corporate interests that fund his campaigns. It makes complete sense that these corporate overlords want to check in to remind Perry who he really works for. And Perry heeds their call like an obedient dog.


The Koch brothers are the conservative agenda-setters in American politics. They are the Tea Party's main sponsors - without them, there would be no bus fleets for rallies, coordinated media strategies or funds for advertisements. The ingenious Koch's routinely buy politicians through campaign donations and influence with the right-wing media, locking them into a radical anti-government agenda. Perry is undeniably part of the Koch brothers' plan to end regulations, kill social services and solidify America as a nation run by and for the wealthy.

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

You are an idiot. I have funded myself, as have all the other people I know in the Tea party. I read so far as "Koch brothers" and didn't bother to read the rest.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Coolbrucelong
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:09 am
Location: PA USA

Post by Coolbrucelong »

Axil
What part of my being against my children growing up in an economy crippled by excessive government and excessive debt makes me a stooge for the Koch brothers, or ma terrorist in the words of our vice president

Let me see if I understand. I think our government is and has been spending far more than they have any hope of every repaying. That makes me some sort of idiot funded by and under the influence of a bad guy.

Alex is there any conceivable honorable way to oppose the present excessive government spending without being subject to an ad homiun attack? Is ideological conformity the only path to honor?


bruce

Another way of dealing with this rhetorically is to agree for sake of argument I am a paid hack of the Kock brothers. Having gotten that behind us, the government is spending historically high levels of GNP and is on course to spend orders of magnitude more. Hack or no hack, what is wrong with being concerned and opposed to this government malfeasance? How do we pay our bills noting of course we cannot tax enough to get out of the present jam?
Optimist: Glass is half full
Pessimist: Glass is half empty
Engineer: Someone made that glass twice
as large as it needs to be.

ScottL
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:26 pm

Post by ScottL »

How do we pay our bills noting of course we cannot tax enough to get out of the present jam?
Cut spending while increasing revenues. We need not tax the rich to death to increase revenues just as we need not cut off disability to save. The question is where do we cut and how do we reform tax codes.

Diogenes, if I'm not mistaken, has favored a flat tax rate. That's fine, that's his financial opinon, but I may point out that if persons for example make:

$26,000/annually at say 15%, that person will have paid $3,900 in taxes.

vs. An individual who makes $300,000/annually

$300,000/annually at 15%, will pay $45,000 in taxes.

There obviously seems to be a disparity of $3,900 vs. $45,000; but that's 15% of someones income. In the case of the first person making $26,000, by paying taxes will have dropped them below the poverty line. So the suggestion was made, well if you don't make enough perhaps you shouldn't pay anything. That's all fine and dandy but where's the cut off? If the cut off were $26,000 well once you make $26,000, you're actually only taking home $22,100, but those making $25,999 don't pay and keep every penny. This is the flaw of flat tax rates in my opinion.

People don't vote on the practices that are for the betterment of all, but for the betterment of themselves.

Jccarlton
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Southern Ct

Post by Jccarlton »

Diogenes wrote:You are an idiot. I have funded myself, as have all the other people I know in the Tea party. I read so far as "Koch brothers" and didn't bother to read the rest.
Interesting piece fantasy ranting isn't it. I find it amazing that lefties always have to try to find the bogeyman leaders even when they are fantasies. They cannot seem to understand, that yes there are whole bunches of people who understand the inevitable consequences of what they advocate and want no part of it.

Jccarlton
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:14 pm
Location: Southern Ct

Post by Jccarlton »

Coolbrucelong wrote:Axil
What part of my being against my children growing up in an economy crippled by excessive government and excessive debt makes me a stooge for the Koch brothers, or ma terrorist in the words of our vice president

Let me see if I understand. I think our government is and has been spending far more than they have any hope of every repaying. That makes me some sort of idiot funded by and under the influence of a bad guy.

Alex is there any conceivable honorable way to oppose the present excessive government spending without being subject to an ad homiun attack? Is ideological conformity the only path to honor?


bruce

Another way of dealing with this rhetorically is to agree for sake of argument I am a paid hack of the Kock brothers. Having gotten that behind us, the government is spending historically high levels of GNP and is on course to spend orders of magnitude more. Hack or no hack, what is wrong with being concerned and opposed to this government malfeasance? How do we pay our bills noting of course we cannot tax enough to get out of the present jam?
Where can I go to get my Koch brohers paid hack money? :twisted:

Axil
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

How do we pay our bills noting of course we cannot tax enough to get out of the present jam?
The top corporate tax rate is 35 percent, but the Treasury Department estimated that in 2004, the most recent year for which data is available, over 16,000 American multinationals paid $16 billion in taxes on $700 billion in foreign income — an effective rate of 2.3 percent.

By now, corperate foreign income has doubled and doubled again.

The US tax code is full of corporate loopholes bought over the years by K street lobbyists that makes it perfectly legal for companies to avoid paying their fair share of the costs of our democracy. It’s a tax code that makes it all too easy for a number — a small privileged number of individuals and companies to abuse overseas tax havens to avoid paying any taxes at all. We need a tax code that says a company should pay lower taxes if they create jobs in Buffalo and New York instead of giving a free ride to companies that are sending jobs to China and Bangalore India.

Those American companies who don't like the new just tax laws can become Chinese and Indian companies. But the down side of that move for the CEO of such a company is a possible bullet to the head if he or his company undermines the national interests of China.

We need millions of jobs for people in America.

But these jobs are not what the Tea baggers are after. An unfair tax system is what the Tea party stands for. They consider changing this abusive corporate tax system as rising taxes. YES, you might consider me an idiot if you think I will accept this national malfeasance.

They want a downgraded US bond system, a falling stock market, and more unemployment. That might get them back the presidency and business as usual.

Axil
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

I find it amazing that lefties always have to try to find the bogeyman leaders even when they are fantasies.
You need a refresher course in Reaganism... you have been focusing on the Koch Brothers way to much and are losing your Republican way. There is no such thing as left of right, just up or down. Here is what Reagen said...

"You and I are told we must choose between a left or right, but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man's age-old dream -- the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order -- or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. Regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path. Plutarch warned, "The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits."
- Ronald Reagan, October 27, 1964

Axil
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

Here is how the tea baggers do business...pay to play


Washington - Texas Gov. Rick Perry has powered his political career on the largesse of donors like Dallas billionaire Harold Simmons, who gave the governor $1.12 million in recent years. And donors like Simmons have found the rewards to be mutual, reaping benefits from Texas during Perry's tenure. Nearly half of those mega-donors received hefty business contracts, tax breaks or appointments under Perry, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis. Perry, campaigning Monday at the Iowa State Fair in Des Moines, declined to comment when asked how he separated the interests of his donors from the needs of his state.

This has shown to be an effective job creation strategy, Texas has generated by far the most minimum wage jobs of any state in the nation.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... full.story

Coolbrucelong
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:09 am
Location: PA USA

Post by Coolbrucelong »

Here is how the tea baggers do business...pay to play

Axil

Are you able to discuss topics such as the magnitude of the federal budget without recourse to name calling and sexual slurs? From previous posts I know you are- should you decide to make the effort- capable of rational thought.

Here is the problem.

I am well into middle age. Some of my high school friends have retired. Every year of my adult life the federal budget has increased by a percentage larger than the percentage increase of the American GNP. This year the federal budget as fraction of GNP has matched the highest every level achieved in WW2 with continued Federal spending growth assured by baseline accounting, and by multiple underfunded obligations.

For sake of argument an in an effort to keep you rational and on topic I will grant you every allegation, that corporations steal billions, that Texas is a cesspit of political crimes, that everything was fine until G Bush, that I am under the thrall of the hyper evil and hyper influential Kock brothers and even if you insist that myself and others who worry about federal spending engage in oral homosexual sex practices on a daily basis.

Now please explain -quantitatively- how it will be possible for the federal budget to continue the present rate of increase without limit. Don't forget about unfunded liabilities such as social security, medicad, medicare and Obamacare.
Optimist: Glass is half full
Pessimist: Glass is half empty
Engineer: Someone made that glass twice
as large as it needs to be.

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Jccarlton wrote:
Diogenes wrote:You are an idiot. I have funded myself, as have all the other people I know in the Tea party. I read so far as "Koch brothers" and didn't bother to read the rest.
Interesting piece fantasy ranting isn't it. I find it amazing that lefties always have to try to find the bogeyman leaders even when they are fantasies. They cannot seem to understand, that yes there are whole bunches of people who understand the inevitable consequences of what they advocate and want no part of it.
I recently saw an article written by a psychiatrist arguing that Liberals are basically people suffering from psychological disorders. I have met and dealt with many liberals in my life, and talking to them is like entering the twilight zone. Reality is a foreign concept in the little worlds where they dwell.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Coolbrucelong
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:09 am
Location: PA USA

Post by Coolbrucelong »

This has shown to be an effective job creation strategy, Texas has generated by far the most minimum wage jobs of any state in the nation.



Axil most other states are generating no additional jobs. For this reason it is easy for Texas to be generating more minimum wage jobs than any other state. Texas is also generating more middle wage jobs than any other state and generating more high paid jobs than any other state.
Optimist: Glass is half full
Pessimist: Glass is half empty
Engineer: Someone made that glass twice
as large as it needs to be.

Axil
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

Coolbrucelong wrote:Here is how the tea baggers do business...pay to play

Axil

Are you able to discuss topics such as the magnitude of the federal budget without recourse to name calling and sexual slurs? From previous posts I know you are- should you decide to make the effort- capable of rational thought.

Here is the problem.

I am well into middle age. Some of my high school friends have retired. Every year of my adult life the federal budget has increased by a percentage larger than the percentage increase of the American GNP. This year the federal budget as fraction of GNP has matched the highest every level achieved in WW2 with continued Federal spending growth assured by baseline accounting, and by multiple underfunded obligations.

For sake of argument an in an effort to keep you rational and on topic I will grant you every allegation, that corporations steal billions, that Texas is a cesspit of political crimes, that everything was fine until G Bush, that I am under the thrall of the hyper evil and hyper influential Kock brothers and even if you insist that myself and others who worry about federal spending engage in oral homosexual sex practices on a daily basis.

Now please explain -quantitatively- how it will be possible for the federal budget to continue the present rate of increase without limit. Don't forget about unfunded liabilities such as social security, medicad, medicare and Obamacare.
Through the tax system, the government intrudes into the affairs of Americans in both business and in their households.

In this way, the government picks winners and losers and gets between the company and its customers thereby preventing the market to work in an optimum way.

Companies use government to gain advantage in the marketplace through lobbyists. This both corrupts government and distorts markets.

All deductions, exemptions, exclusions and credits should be removed from the tax code. This includes the mortgage interest deduction, and the employer medical cost deduction.

These tax provisions are in fact government spending far larger than those that maintain the social safety net.


The tax system motivates business to influence government. The Bush administration through the influence of lobbyists corrupted the political process in the extreme and the tea party seeks to maintain and extend that unfortunate situation.

The government must provide an even handed playing field that allows business to flourish without political favoritism or influence while promoting the welfare of American labor in a global marketplace. If these conditions were in place, there would be no deficit because business would be thriving, the banks would be lending, both labor and business would be paying fair and abundent taxes, and full employment would be a fact of life in a capitalist society preserved from political influence.

When the system of incentives is perverted in a capitalist society by those who seek unfair advantage, that society will fail. A capitalist society must be just in its essence to survive.

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

Coolbrucelong wrote:Here is how the tea baggers do business...pay to play

Axil

Are you able to discuss topics such as the magnitude of the federal budget without recourse to name calling and sexual slurs?
Amen,

Start with a stupid, old, boring sexual insult and people lose interest in what you are saying.

I mean, his argument is that the tea party members are puppets, incapable of independent thought. Then he starts by saying, "tea baggers", demonstrating his own guided devotion to his own set of puppet masters.

Funny really.

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

Axil wrote: All deductions, exemptions, exclusions and credits should be removed from the tax code. This includes the mortgage interest deduction, and the employer medical cost deduction.
The inequities exist in the way the money is redistributed as well as in the way the money is taxed. Government picks winners and losers both by the way it taxes and the way it redistributes. You should extend your argument to who deserves to get the handouts as well to those who don't deserve to skirt the act of paying.

regards

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