Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

[Diogenes]

Oklahoma Woman Shoots, Kills Intruder:

When Martin kicked in the door and came after her with the knife, the teen mom shot and killed the 24-year-old. Police are calling the shooting justified.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/okla-woman-sho ... wTEu1bHQfM

[GIThruster]

The story is in some ways misleading. One of the states that is not shown to have a "castle" law, is Oregon, and I'm pretty sure in Oregon, you're not only permitted to use lethal force in defense of self, but in defense of property.

Would be interesting to know what the laws actually say. I haven't looked in 20 years.

[Diogenes]

And a subsequent story reveals this: (Which I suspected from the beginning.)

BLANCHARD — The two men who invaded Sarah McKinley's Blanchard mobile home had just taken prescription painkillers and might have been after more medication, according to an affidavit filed Wednesday in Grady County.

http://newsok.com/alleged-accomplice-in ... z1ibFFtzU8

If only prescription narcotics were freely available to anyone who wanted them, this tragedy might not have happened.

[ladajo]

I read it as another confirmation of a Basic Truth.
"Do not bring a knife to a gunfight."

I have no personal sympathy for the dead guy. I would do the same as her, expect the part of asking the 911 operator if I could. Although, from a legal perspective, I guess her making the call before she blasted the selfish tard, put her on more solid ground as a rational actor.

My only regret is that she did not get a chance to blast the other selfish tard who in my opinion will eventually try to do it to someone else. Except that he may may make it more risky, as it seems in the reporting that he had a hand-gun.

I wonder how Obama-Anti-Gun-Bots will address her actions. She should have reasoned with him, negotiated, begged, prostrated,...

This one should be in the "Good News" category. 50 Cents of taxpayer money well spent.

[KitemanSA]

This one should be in the "Good News" category. 50 Cents of taxpayer money well spent.

Please, 21 minutes with the 911 operator had to be at least $5.00 of taxpayer expense!

Ok, so it was STILL a great deal!

[ladajo]

Fair point, very fair point. I concede, $5.50 vice $0.50.
Of course I not counting the initial capitol investment of $200 for the Double Barrel, as it has mulitple uses.

[williatw]

What is interesting to me is this: Our homicide rate is now at 40yr lows, even though there are more guns around than ever, and definitely more concealed carry permits. So how do our gun control friends make their argument for the need for more gun control? Answer they don't talk so much about homicide/manslaughter anymore the talking point now is "gun violence". Gun violence = murder + suicide. That’s where the 30K a year talking point figure comes from that they like to report. That way they can avoid mentioning how much lower the murder rate has gotten in recent years. The idea that strict gun control laws would have an effect on suicide is specious...after all Japan is their poster child for a disarmed crime free society and their suicide rate per capita is much higher than ours is. Their 2nd less successful strategy is to link gun control or the lack of it in the US for the increase in gun violence in Mexico which actually has very strict gun control laws. That is the supposed lack of gun control in America is responsible for Mexico's problems even if our homicide rate is half theirs in spite of their strict gun control.

[ladajo]

My Yemeni buddies told me that one of the reasons there are not wholesale shootings in Yemen is that everyone is armed. And everyone understands that if you shoot someone, someone is probably going to come looking to shoot you. Even in a de-facto civil war, they are not really shooting each other. It is limited to confrontations between government forces, protestors, and seperatist elements. Interesting.

Do not forget to hold up stats for Cananda, UK, France, etc.

One of the reasons I think violent crime is down, is that it has become more apparent in the last ten years since 9/11 that The Average Joe and Joesephine are more willing to defend themselves when confronted. Given the standard ambush methodology of the average criminal, as it is one founded in simple terms of a coward's approach, ie assault them when you know they can not prevent you, it follows that a larger national interest in self defense makes these guys think more before attacking Average Joe's. I wonder if there has also been a corrosponding shift in the crime base as crime between criminals vice crime between criminals and innocents. I will have to look that up, and I am sure it will be interesting no matter the numbers. Hmmm.

[KitemanSA]

Do not forget to hold up stats for Cananda, UK, France, etc.

I kind of like the one that was touted by the Anti-Gun Enthusiasts that cited a study in Canada that when they limited (banned?) personal ownership of handguns, the suicide rate with handguns went down. This of course was quickly countered by the study that showed that while, yes, the suicide rate with handguns went down, the overall suicide rate didn't change while the rate of deaths and injuries to innocent bystanders (collateral damage) went way UP. (If you jump off a highway overpass, you sometimes kill the guy that runs into you with his car).

Then of course there is that study out of England touted by the A-GEs that showed the correlation between guns owned per capita and the murder rate per capita with guns, both of which were ~ 1/10th what the values were in the US. To which the obvious assertion is that there England is a land of tri- and tetra-amputees since the number of murders using hands and feet per capita in England was 1/10th that in the US too. Hmmm.

[williatw]

Preliminary Crime Stats For the First Half of 2011 indicate big drop in crime:

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/de ... ats_121911

Normally these are the sorts of stats any politician would gladly claim credit for deserved or not. I mean we are at 40yr lows in homicide. But as far as I can see not much of a word out of the Obama administration. From the link above: the murder rate for the 1st half of 2011 dropped 5.7%. According to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ted_States
It was 4.8/100,000 in 2010. So that works out to a rate in 2011 of 4.54/100,000. The lowest rate in the US in the last 100yrs was 4.0 in 1957. So we are currently only about 12% above the lowest rate in the US in the last 100yrs. This is at a time when there are more guns around than ever to say nothing of concealed carry permits.

[Helius]

It's gotta be more dangerous to do home invasion robberies than doing, say, bank jobs. My guess would be 1/3rd chance of being shot per home invasion.

[choff]

Do not forget to hold up stats for Cananda, UK, France, etc.

I kind of like the one that was touted by the Anti-Gun Enthusiasts that cited a study in Canada that when they limited (banned?) personal ownership of handguns, the suicide rate with handguns went down. This of course was quickly countered by the study that showed that while, yes, the suicide rate with handguns went down, the overall suicide rate didn't change while the rate of deaths and injuries to innocent bystanders (collateral damage) went way UP. (If you jump off a highway overpass, you sometimes kill the guy that runs into you with his car).

Then of course there is that study out of England touted by the A-GEs that showed the correlation between guns owned per capita and the murder rate per capita with guns, both of which were ~ 1/10th what the values were in the US. To which the obvious assertion is that there England is a land of tri- and tetra-amputees since the number of murders using hands and feet per capita in England was 1/10th that in the US too. Hmmm.

I've had 2 cousins commit suicide by hunting rifle, probably handgun ownership hasn't got a great deal to do with Canadian stats. The biggest difference would most likely be aging population.

[MSimon]

D,

It is too bad they didn't get juiced up before going on their rampage. Then you could blame alcohol.

BTW were their prescription narcotics prescribed or black market?

And I note that current prohibition did not prohibit the criminals from acquiring their drugs. But I get your point. Pain killers cause crime. So does alcohol. So does tobacco.

And if we really want to get to root causes: property causes crime.

====

My take: abused men have quite a tendency to take their abuse out on the general society. You really want less crime, less drug use etc? Do something about child abuse.

[MSimon]

In my town there was a gang take-out drug raid in '87 (IIRC) and the FBI noted that a spike in the murder rate post the gang takeout was to be expected as the remaiders fought over the spoils (drug dealing territories mostly).

To get the murder rate down the gangs have to have been pacified (i.e. entrenched) with the police only taking out the worst actors with the drug trade mostly unmolested. Which is to say: to do something about the murder rate the police are now in cahoots with the gangs.

Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to legalize? Vs corrupt police organizations?

BTW the murder rate is rather high in Rockford because it is the drug trade hub for the Midwest. The same function it performed during alcohol prohibition. (I think Rockford is #9 or #10 on the list for high crime rate cities in America).

Let me note that there have been no gang take-out raids here since that one in '87. It can't be for lack of gangs.

[MSimon]

An amusing note:

The head of the gang lived in my building and I awoke one morning on my way to my aerospace job to find my building surrounded by police, FBI, DEA, etc.

Our neighborhood was rather free of gang type crimes and general violence while the head gang guy lived there. After he was taken away the level of violence increased and we had to move away to protect the kids.

He lived in the aptmt. across from us and was a rather pleasant fellow. The only problem we ever had was a lot of pot smoke in the hallway. And the the parking lot full of Benzes when they were having a meeting. But I only figured that out after the fact.