Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

choff
Posts: 2447
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:02 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by choff »

paperburn1 wrote:1 in 20
If that's true, then one of the best ways to avoid school shootings is to end the practice of active shooter drills.
CHoff

paperburn1
Posts: 2484
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by paperburn1 »

As Mark Twain once said their are lies, darn lies, and statistics. As a question was postulated what are the chances of having an active shooter drill and an active shooter on the same day of school it works out to be one in 20. But what are the chances of there being an active shooter in school? They are finitely larger. Across the United States there are 26,407 public secondary schools and 10,693 private secondary schools.
But if you really want to compare death statistics more young people were shot and killed in Chicago this year than at schools all across United States last year, that's just on city. but you don't hear the media talk about that as chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation bar new york city.

This last shooting with fraught with so many failures by local law enforcement federal and people in general is totally amazing that they're not blaming the each other as much. The Leo did not engage the shooter and I cannot blame him for that. Anybody has any professional military training or law enforcement training knows that a man with a handgun going up against a man with a rifle will lose that battle the vast majority of the time. The first backup to arrive arrived from a different jurisdiction. The FBI had warnings and dismiss them. The local police had over 17 complaints on these individuals and five of them actually involved brandishing a weapon up against a person's head and they did nothing. There were multiple individuals that new the shooter was making active threats and yet nothing was done. This whole thing is one big ass shitt storm and people need to think about what's really going on before they speak. The president should shut his mouth, ask any professional Leo or anyone that has advanced military training what the odds that teacher actually being able to do anything would be and they would probably rate that right around near negligible. To engage target like that takes skill repeated practice and extensive training. All of which I'm fairly sure the school system will not be able to afford to do. And the teacher going off to stop a shooter is only going to leave that classroom without an adult to guide the children. What I find amazing is that all school systems are supposed to be now trained in the Run Hide Fight scenario but apparently the school system wasn't using that. They were using lot the lock the doors and hunker down which basically get the gun man stationary targets in a corner all bunched up. Like I said before this was screwed up from the very beginning. stopping my rant now.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

williatw
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by williatw »

paperburn1 wrote:As The Leo did not engage the shooter and I cannot blame him for that. Anybody has any professional military training or law enforcement training knows that a man with a handgun going up against a man with a rifle will lose that battle the vast majority of the time.
Don't know but would be willing to bet that as the facts slowly dribble out we will learn the police are so trained; that is that the dominate consideration they are trained to weigh when deciding to engage is "officer safety". Protecting the public a secondary consideration; of course the sheriff in this case because of the level of civilian carnage and the resulting outcry/publicity decided to throw the LEO under the bus. He the luckless LEO will have to live with the label "Coward of Broward County" for the rest of his life for choosing not to blow the whistle and in exchange he gets to retire and keep his pension (if not his dignity).
Last edited by williatw on Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

williatw
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by williatw »

paperburn1 wrote:ask any professional Leo or anyone that has advanced military training what the odds that teacher actually being able to do anything would be and they would probably rate that right around near negligible.
I would luv to ask said navy seal/army ranger a question; given the choice of inadequately trained average middle age teacher with his Glock engaging immediately (in less than one minute) the teenage nutjob with the AR15 and the alternative of letting him (the nutjob) plunk away at the kids for ~5-10 minutes or so before the police arrive/decide it is tactically sound to engage, which would he/you choose? Especially if his (the navy seal's) son/daughter/grandkids were in that school? And of course there might even be more than one teacher in the school armed?

And of course let's not exaggerate the skill of the teenage nutjob shooter; far as I know he had no military training/experience, least not that I have heard of. He (the shooter) wasn't exactly Rambo/Jason Bourne; so don't know if I would agree that one or more armed teachers and or support staff would have a "negligible" chance against him. Generally these nut cases don't exactly distinguish themselves as far as skill/valor when they encounter armed determined resistance.
Last edited by williatw on Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

ladajo
Posts: 6258
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by ladajo »

Talking out a dumbshit like that kid is not hard, it mostly requires a little discipline, patience, and then audacity. Localize, catch him on the reload, and advance with directed fire. The real issue is knowing whether or not he is alone. That is the rub. All things considered though, engaging him is the best way to end the incident. Lots and lots of data on that, and none of it out of Hollywood. Once the shooters are engaged, they more often than not lose track of the situation and objectives and tend to implode. Is it a risk to the engager? Yes. However less than they may imagine, especially if trained and experienced. And in this case, aggressiveness counts. When I used to train sidearms, the first drill I would do was line them up at five yards on a fullsize, and have them all draw and dump their mags as fast as they can. Invariably, across the line, you may see one or two hits total on all the silhouettes combined. Then, I would say, okay, now you've got that out of your system, I am going to teach you how to shoot. In a gun fight, you generally only have so many tries, and each one should count. Pull, Picture, Pop. Picture, Pop, ...and so on. Accuracy by Volume is not generally a real option in the average gun fight. Especially close quarters. Meh.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
Posts: 2484
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by paperburn1 »

I have to admit given the option of an unarmed teacher or a armed teacher with no experience I would prefer the second choice. While the police officer probably did make a very tactically sound decision he most definitely will have to live with the morally ambiguous one of letting children die to preserve his own life. While the commanding officer of the police department stated that the procedure is to advance immediately into the building is officer did not do that which makes me wonder if that really was the procedure that they taught or some old training kicked in as he waited for backup. The world will never know what was going on in his mind at the time. The major problem I have with guns in the school is the fact that the bullet doesn't stop when it hits a body or it's a wall or locker or door that keeps traveling till it expends all of his energy. It's a complicated issue and many variables. The one that irks me the most is supposedly the guy had been called on by law enforcement 17 times and five times he actually pointed or put a gun to a person's head. I would like to find out if that was really true.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

paperburn1
Posts: 2484
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by paperburn1 »

As a side note a long time ago in a place far far away, I was in Israel and we were in a part of town where there had been some violence previously. I was sort of slack-jawed amazed when a school trip of children went by and the teachers /guards were carrying rifles. But then again every man and woman in Israel does a military service if I'm not mistaken and are well trained in the use of a weapon
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

TDPerk
Posts: 976
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Northern Shen. Valley, VA
Contact:

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by TDPerk »

paperburn1 wrote: Anybody has any professional military training or law enforcement training knows that a man with a handgun going up against a man with a rifle will lose that battle the vast majority of the time.
In an open field at a distance, sure. Not even a credible thing to engage the rifleman then.

This was inside a building. At that range, the rifle has no advantage except the probably initially larger ammo count in the magazine. At the range involved, the 5.56 will almost certainly make icepick wounds and not tumble, a pistol round will expand as intended. There is also the fact this sort of criminally insane person usually surrenders or offs themselves as soon as they are opposed--in any case they stop shooting victims.
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

paperburn1
Posts: 2484
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by paperburn1 »

From CNN
When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

With direction from the Broward deputies who were outside, Coral Springs police soon entered the building where the shooter was. New Broward County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene, and two of those deputies and an officer from Sunrise, Florida, joined the Coral Springs police as they went into the building.
Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. It's unclear whether the shooter was still in the building when they arrived.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

williatw
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by williatw »

paperburn1 wrote:Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. It's unclear whether the shooter was still in the building when they arrived.
The amazing thing about this is the gun control people would see this as an argument for Not arming teachers. After all, if trained experienced police officers can apparently "misjudge" a situation like this they might say, what chance would far less trained experienced armed teachers/support staff inside the school would have of making the right choice? Cause..if one were inside the school being shot at "taking up station" somewhere and doing nothing might be perceived as far less of a viable option than if one were safely outside the building.

choff
Posts: 2447
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:02 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by choff »

There was one report that said the school administrators were discouraging the arrest of students caught committing crimes, as it reflected badly on the school system when receiving extra funding.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/9668 ... 74784.html

What I stumbled upon was a Broward County law enforcement system in a state of conflict. The Broward County School Board and District Superintendent, entered into a political agreement with Broward County Law enforcement officials to stop arresting students for crimes.
5. The motive was simple. The school system administrators wanted to "improve their statistics" and gain state and federal grant money for improvements therein.
6. So police officials, the very highest officials of law enforcement (Sheriff and Police Chiefs), entered into a plan.
CHoff

paperburn1
Posts: 2484
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by paperburn1 »

The biggest problem with arming teachers is how does law enforcement know who the teachers are,LEOs come in and seeing a teacher taking a stand how do they not know he is the aggressor ?

I have several educators in my family and they surprisingly came back with an unexpected response. "I don't know if I could shoot a student I taught or a former student I taught." This bodes the very legitimate question of hesitation and reaction.
Just saying...
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

williatw
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by williatw »

Assault Weapons Preserve the Purpose of the Second Amendment
By David French February 21, 2018 4:43 PM


Image
Alec Murrary holds an AR-15 assault rifle at the Ringmasters of Utah gun range, in Springville, Utah


I fully recognize that there are many millions of Americans who flatly disagree with the notion that armed citizens either can or should try to deter tyranny. Either their trust in the government is so complete (or their sense of futility in the face of its armed might so great) that they don’t believe private ownership of weapons is a meaningful check on lawless government action, or they believe that the cost of widespread civilian gun ownership is simply too high to pay in exchange for a theoretical check on state power. That’s a debate worth having — in the context of a long-term progressive effort to repeal the Second Amendment. But for now, the Founders have settled question
Banning them would gut the concept of an armed citizenry as a final, emergency bulwark against tyranny.

Arguments about guns tend to suffer from two distinct problems. The first — and most obvious — is they quickly get screechy. The arguments devolve into shouting matches and temper tantrums. The goal isn’t to persuade but to mock and bully, as if stigma alone can decisively shift the public debate. The second problem occurs when the debate gets too wonky. Charts and graphs fly across Twitter, as if fundamental questions about liberty and American society can be answered by the right kind of cross-country comparison with Australia, Great Britain, or Switzerland.

When facing the big questions about guns — such as whether America should “ban” an entire category of weapons (such as “assault weapons”) — it’s better, I think, to go back to the first principles embodied in the Second Amendment. At its core, the Amendment protects a person’s individual inherent right of self-defense and empowers the collective obligation to defend liberty against state tyranny. As Justice Scalia noted in District of Columbia v. Heller, this concept was fully embedded in the founding generation:


And, of course, what the Stuarts had tried to do to their political enemies, George III had tried to do to the colonists. In the tumultuous decades of the 1760’s and 1770’s, the Crown began to disarm the inhabitants of the most rebellious areas. That provoked polemical reactions by Americans invoking their rights as Englishmen to keep arms.

Any given gun-control measure must be evaluated against the background of those twin purposes. That’s one reason why statements such as “The Second Amendment was only designed to protect muskets” are so ridiculous. Imagine trying to defend your family with a flintlock pistol. The right of self-defense is best understood as a right of effective self-defense, and the tools for effective self-defense will evolve right along with weapon design and development. Any other conclusion leads to absurd results. Consequently, as the Supreme Court held, the amendment protects weapons “in common use at the time".


This means that if gun-control measures “freeze” the nature and types of guns that are lawful for civilian use, even as broader gun development proceeds apace, there will be an ever-widening gap between the capacity of a criminal to do harm and law-abiding citizens’ ability to protect themselves from that harm. It will also lead to such a yawning gap between citizen and state that private gun ownership no longer provides any meaningful deterrent to tyranny.

And this brings us to the two favorite targets of those who argue for so-called commonsense gun control — assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. While the term “assault weapon” is vague, we’ll define it as a semi-automatic rifle with cosmetic features similar to military weapons. They’re typically paired with high-capacity magazines. In fact, an “assault weapon” without a high-capacity magazine is little more than a menacing-looking hunting rifle.

There are millions of assault weapons in America. The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the nation. There are tens of millions of high-capacity magazines, and they’re extraordinarily easy to make. Both are unquestionably in “common use.”

This means that the foreseeable criminal threat to you or your family comes from a person wielding — at the very least — a semiautomatic pistol with a high-capacity magazine. This is one reason that police typically don’t carry revolvers. Their own weapons of choice have evolved to deal with the threat, and — as my colleague Charlie Cooke is fond of noting — if a person doesn’t “need” a high-capacity magazine to defend himself, then why do the police use them?

If I use an AR-15 for home defense, then I possess firepower that matches or likely exceeds (given how rarely rifles are used in gun crimes) that of any likely home intruder. Limit the size of the magazine to, say, ten rounds, and you’ve placed the law-abiding homeowner at a disadvantage. Prohibit them from obtaining a compact, easy-to-use, highly accurate carbine, and you’ve ensured that homeowners will be defending themselves with less accurate weapons. The best weapons “in common use” would be reserved for criminals.

Moreover, an assault-weapon ban (along with a ban on high-capacity magazines) would gut the concept of an armed citizenry as a final, emergency bulwark against tyranny. No credible person doubts that the combination of a reliable semiautomatic rifle and a large-capacity magazine is far more potent than a revolver, bolt-action rifle, or pump-action shotgun. A free citizen armed with an assault rifle is more formidable than a free citizen armed only with a pistol. A population armed with assault rifles is more formidable than a population armed with less lethal weapons.

Citizens must be able to possess the kinds of weapons that can at least deter state overreach.

The argument is not that a collection of random citizens should be able to go head-to-head with the Third Cavalry Regiment. That’s absurd. Nor is the argument that citizens should possess weapons “in common use” in the military. Rather, for the Second Amendment to remain a meaningful check on state power, citizens must be able to possess the kinds and categories of weapons that can at least deter state overreach, that would make true authoritarianism too costly to attempt.


I fully recognize that there are many millions of Americans who flatly disagree with the notion that armed citizens either can or should try to deter tyranny. Either their trust in the government is so complete (or their sense of futility in the face of its armed might so great) that they don’t believe private ownership of weapons is a meaningful check on lawless government action, or they believe that the cost of widespread civilian gun ownership is simply too high to pay in exchange for a theoretical check on state power. That’s a debate worth having — in the context of a long-term progressive effort to repeal the Second Amendment. But for now, the Founders have settled question.

As Justice Scalia ably articulated in Heller, the Second Amendment was designed to protect what Blackstone called “the natural right of resistance and self-preservation.” Without access to the weapons in common use in our time, the law-abiding citizen will grow increasingly — and intolerably — vulnerable to the lawless. Thus, to properly defend life and liberty, access to assault weapons and high-capacity magazines isn’t a luxury; it’s a necessity.


https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/ ... amendment/
Last edited by williatw on Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TDPerk
Posts: 976
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Northern Shen. Valley, VA
Contact:

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by TDPerk »

paperburn1 wrote:The biggest problem with arming teachers is how does law enforcement know who the teachers are,LEOs come in and seeing a teacher taking a stand how do they not know he is the aggressor ?

I have several educators in my family and they surprisingly came back with an unexpected response. "I don't know if I could shoot a student I taught or a former student I taught." This bodes the very legitimate question of hesitation and reaction.
Just saying...
A) A teacher in defense will not act like a spree killer. If nothing else the methodologies are completely different. That said, I suspect current LEO training and cultural attitudes have the effect of maximizing the chances of LEOs killing the innocent--that is not a reason to suspend the right of defense of self and others.

B) Then that teacher should not be armed. Why are you pretending this is serious issue? Most adults are mature adults and can do what is needful, as opposed to being emotionally crippled.
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

TDPerk
Posts: 976
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Northern Shen. Valley, VA
Contact:

Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Post by TDPerk »

williatw wrote:Assault Weapons Preserve the Purpose of the Second Amendment
I fully recognize that there are many millions of Americans who flatly disagree with the notion that armed citizens either can or should try to deter tyranny. Either their trust in the government is so complete (or their sense of futility in the face of its armed might so great) that they don’t believe private ownership of weapons is a meaningful check on lawless government action, or they believe that the cost of widespread civilian gun ownership is simply too high to pay in exchange for a theoretical check on state power. That’s a debate worth having — in the context of a long-term progressive effort to repeal the Second Amendment. But for now, the Founders have settled question
" But for now, the Founders have settled question " <-- No, we have settled it, simply by virtue of the fact we remain a polity where the effort to repeal the 2nd cannot even meaningfully begin. When the Left cries for it, it is all pretense.

When the effective super-majority of Americans required to repeal it votes for such, America will have ended -- Geo. Washington, Joseph P. Martin and company--they need not have bothered. With such a vote, as history seems to be unfolding, the last gasp of classical liberalism, the Enlightenment, and liberty will evanesce on the winds of time.

If government can not be made to recognize in law that tyranny is ultimately to be resisted by force, turn off the lights, we're done.
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

Post Reply