Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

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williatw
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Location: Ohio

Postby williatw » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:07 am

Diogenes wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
Diogenes wrote: [I think for every number "X" of bad guys who get smoked by an armed citizen, the deterrence effect is X+Y, with Y being a non negative number. There are a lot of criminals who decide not to take the chance when they hear that criminals are getting shot.
I suspect it is more like X^Y where Y>1, probably >2. As a deterant, the quantity of "getting smoked" has a quality all its own.

Lest I be thought of as "unreasonable", I was being cautious with my numbers. :) I agree with your numbers.

Kind of makes one wonder....what is the contrary "multiplier effect"? That is not so many years ago, if you shot someone under similiar circumstances alot of places(like Britain today), you would be crucified by the media. You not the criminal you defended yourself against would have been the villian. If they were unable to legally convict you for murder/manslaughter, than miraculously the relatives of the deceased criminal would have no trouble finding lawyers to sue you into bankruptcy. Wonder if that tended to embolden criminals? Again one of those kinds of things that are tough to quantify....the rape/mugging that happens when bad guys read about citizens pilloried by the authorities(& media) when they defended themselves, and they take heart & are encouraged by that. Like what happened to Bernard Goetz years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Goetz

choff
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Postby choff » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:11 am

CHoff

JLawson
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Postby JLawson » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:28 pm

williatw wrote:That is not so many years ago, if you shot someone under similiar circumstances alot of places(like Britain today), you would be crucified by the media. You not the criminal you defended yourself against would have been the villian. If they were unable to legally convict you for murder/manslaughter, than miraculously the relatives of the deceased criminal would have no trouble finding lawyers to sue you into bankruptcy. Wonder if that tended to embolden criminals?

How would it not? If you get shot by someone you're robbing or beating, you magically become the hallowed victim. Fame, money, TV time, lawyers falling all over themselves to sue the people who hurt you. As opposed to a bit of pain, swiftly relieved by the medical service...

What's the down side?

Besides - it's not FAIR that you should get hurt just for a bit of fun... Oh, it's not fun for the folks who get robbed? Well, what does that matter?
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

williatw
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Location: Ohio

Postby williatw » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:43 am

ladajo wrote:My Yemeni buddies told me that one of the reasons there are not wholesale shootings in Yemen is that everyone is armed. And everyone understands that if you shoot someone, someone is probably going to come looking to shoot you.
An yet somehow according to wikipedia Yemen's homicide rate is 4.0/100K less than ours http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ted_States And ...earlier in the decade it was as low as 3.2.

hanelyp
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Postby hanelyp » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:47 am

williatw wrote:
ladajo wrote:My Yemeni buddies told me that one of the reasons there are not wholesale shootings in Yemen is that everyone is armed. And everyone understands that if you shoot someone, someone is probably going to come looking to shoot you.
An yet somehow according to wikipedia Yemen's homicide rate is 4.0/100K less than ours http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ted_States And ...earlier in the decade it was as low as 3.2.


And everyone understands that if you shoot someone, someone is probably going to come looking to shoot you.

The price of violent crime sounds high enough to be an effective deterrent.

Diogenes
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Location: Ft. Sill Oklahoma

Postby Diogenes » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:39 pm

Kendra St. Clair: Oklahoma Girl, 12, Shoots Intruder During Home Burglary


Image

Her fear intensified to sheer terror, when she saw the knob of the closet door beginning to turn.

At that point, that for the first time in her life, Kendra fired a gun.

Police said the bullet traveled straight through the closet door and struck 32-year-old Stacey Jones in the shoulder, scaring him out of the house.

They arrested him a few blocks away and charged Jones with first degree burglary.



http://abcnews.go.com/US/kendra-st-clai ... IQysWeM9nI


Way to Go girl!
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

rj40
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Postby rj40 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:00 pm

1. What is drug legalization vs drug decriminalization?
2. I assume one means large corporations could form, like with alcohol companies, while the other means possession would not be a crime. But I don't know.

Home Defense ideas - not perfect, really depends on you, but may be useful:
1. Mossberg 590A1 - model number 51663
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/46999
Fun video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq5-YN-UZPM

2. Smith and Wesson M&P R8, 327, .357 cal
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/39982
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW3zZcOmBWI

I shot a Glock that kept jamming during an outing a few years back. Nice weapon, but don't want that to happen in the real world.

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:21 pm

A .357 is a poor choice for home defense. Especially if you have family around the house. That round will keep on trucking.

A shotgun with light birdshot is good. You can kill if confronted, but it is unlikely to penetrate drywalls with any real force left. And every idiot on the planet knows that sound of a shotgun pump. What they don't know is what it is loaded with, but will assume the worst, and will brain amplify that muzzle to about 6 inches in diameter when they are looking at it pointed at them.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:38 pm

Frangible ammo is available for the .357 that will stop it from doing much damage once it contacts sheetrock. Remington's "Disintigrator" ammo is an example of ammo made specifically to avoid the trouble Iadajo is noting--that you really don't want to shoot through a wall and kill someone by accident.

Whatever you use for home defense, its important to consider in advance whether you intend to do as convention dictates and hide behind your bed with the weapon pointed at the bedroom door, or if you intend to ignore conventional wisdom and run search and destroy missions in your home when you hear a noise. If every time you hear a noise you plan to call the police, then a shotgun is a good choice. If your state supports use of lethal force to protect yourself and your property, as for instance does TX and OR, and you plan to go investigate every time you hear a noise, then a handgun is easier to retain control of in close quarters and is a better choice so long as you're proficient.

I am not recommending search and destroy missions in the home. When I lived in Portland, in a neighborhood adjacent to a bad part of town, I trained my wife to hide behind the bed and point the .357 at the door, while calling the police, if ever she was alarmed when I was not home. That is the safest bet. Safest apart from having a dog in the home, which is enough a deterrent that firearms are unnecessary.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Diogenes
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Location: Ft. Sill Oklahoma

Postby Diogenes » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:19 pm

rj40 wrote:1. What is drug legalization vs drug decriminalization?
2. I assume one means large corporations could form, like with alcohol companies, while the other means possession would not be a crime. But I don't know.

Home Defense ideas - not perfect, really depends on you, but may be useful:
1. Mossberg 590A1 - model number 51663
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/46999
Fun video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq5-YN-UZPM

2. Smith and Wesson M&P R8, 327, .357 cal
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/39982
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW3zZcOmBWI

I shot a Glock that kept jamming during an outing a few years back. Nice weapon, but don't want that to happen in the real world.


This is a common occurance with the Glock if you "limp arm" it. The gun is extremely light compared to other weapons and the body of the weapon does not possess the same rest mass as do older and heavier guns. If you do not hold your arm stifly enough for the recoil to push back against it properly, the gun will jam virtually every single time.

Other guns do not need the extra stifness supplied by your arm. The mass of these gun has sufficient rest inertia to hold it's position while the slide recoils, thereby loading the next round properly.

Years ago I had a friend (the same one I mention who reads this site) who had bought a new Glock 9mm. We went out to shoot a few rounds so he could try it out. First shot, Jam. Since he had no experience clearing a jam I said "hand it to me." I cleared the jam and handed it back to him. Second shot, Jam. I repeated the procedure. Third shot, Jam. I looked at him and said "what are you doing wrong?"

I took the gun, proceeded to fire several rounds with no difficulties. I handed it back to him, First shot, Jam. I finally realized he was not holding his arm rigid enough for the Glock to recoil properly

Try it again, but pay close attention to holding the frame of the gun and prevent it from moving during recoil. You should have no more problems with it jamming. Even so, during a Zombie apocalsypse a revolver is much more reliable. :)
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Postby GIThruster » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:09 pm

Hard to believe, but unless you need something small to conceal, or you have very small hands, one of the best choices for defense is still the 100+ year old M1911. It fires fat slugs that hit like a sledgehammer even with light loads. It's as reliable as a weapons can be and felt recoil is very low. They can be had very cheaply, or tricked out to extravagant expense. The ammo is everywhere and not too expensive. Used M1911's are all over the market and they're so simple to use they require relatively little to be proficient with. If you want a tricked out version there are plenty of custom or updated models available, and the step up to more modern combat handguns is pretty simple, like to the FNP-45 Tactical.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

ladajo
Posts: 6174
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Postby ladajo » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:17 pm

Concur with all above, and am a long time happy owner of a Colt Auto.
It has never jammed. Ever.

As a followup thought, frangible can be pricey. I thouhgt about it as an option in my above post, but figured the average "I have a gun for home defense" dude/dudette is not going to take the extra leap for exotic ammo. Plus it is a round that you should buy and then test as one brand may not mix like another with your particular weapon.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Betruger
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Postby Betruger » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:31 pm

ladajo wrote:A .357 is a poor choice for home defense. Especially if you have family around the house. That round will keep on trucking.

A shotgun with light birdshot is good. You can kill if confronted, but it is unlikely to penetrate drywalls with any real force left. And every idiot on the planet knows that sound of a shotgun pump. What they don't know is what it is loaded with, but will assume the worst, and will brain amplify that muzzle to about 6 inches in diameter when they are looking at it pointed at them.
Put a single dragonbreath shell first up. Put their pants on fire and then spray on the birdshot.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

choff
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Location: Vancouver, Canada

Postby choff » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:08 pm

I've got a fake dog lying inside my patio door, only time I got B & E'd was when it wasn't there, visitors always think it's real for about five minutes.

Probably there's a market for a device that makes a pump shotgun sound, like the clapper, maybe a recording of a redneck saying 'git the hayell outta ma property' to go with it. Good enough for most situations, crooks are already on edge.
CHoff

rj40
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:31 am
Location: Southern USA

Postby rj40 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:28 am

Thanks for the input.

Yeah, I know about the recoil and possible problems.

Someone I was shooting with took it from me and told me that I wasnt holding it right. Jam. Next person, next jam. That was when the owner admitted he hadn't cleaned it since 1996. He started squirting gun oil into it while everyone else laughed. Still kept jamming. I think it had seen some use.

By this time I had had been having no problems with the Walther or the s&w revolver. I did manage to yell out that I hadnt been accused of having a limp wrist since I was 11. And then promised to exercise the old wrist a lot more. When I heard that it was a dirty gun and not my girlish grip, I told everyone that I wasn't having any of it, I was still going to make sure I exercised my wrist.

The spouse was embarrassed, but beer cures much.


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