Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

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TDPerk
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:47 pm

Tom Ligon wrote:There is a legitimate worry about having individual teachers packing heat. How would the firearm be secured?


Funny, doesn't seem to happen to far more accessibly armed deputies in a school, and we already know their training is far less than adequate.
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williatw
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby williatw » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:45 pm

Tom Ligon wrote:There is a legitimate worry about having individual teachers packing heat. How would the firearm be secured?


To any one who cares to answer a question. I have a CCW (concealed carry permit) and I live in Ohio. Suppose I or someone else with a CCW happen to be walking outside a school like the one in Florida and I/they heard gunshots/screams. What would happen (legally) if you drew your CCW pistol (assuming of course you were carrying) and charged into that School "guns-a-blazin" so to speak to save the kids...remember under Federal (as well as my state of Ohio) laws, schools are a gun free zone and a CCW holder is not cop just a private citizen. Have you now just committed a serious prosecutable felony regardless of the effect of your intervention? Even if you manage to kill/capture the assailant?

hanelyp
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby hanelyp » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:24 pm

- Often in the real world a "first responder" is a private citizen who happens to be present when something happens.
- I take a generally very dim view on exempting police from the law the rest of us are expected to follow.

On those 2 points, "gun free zones" can get in the way of doing the right thing.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

Diogenes
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby Diogenes » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:15 am

williatw wrote:
Tom Ligon wrote:There is a legitimate worry about having individual teachers packing heat. How would the firearm be secured?


To any one who cares to answer a question. I have a CCW (concealed carry permit) and I live in Ohio. Suppose I or someone else with a CCW happen to be walking outside a school like the one in Florida and I/they heard gunshots/screams. What would happen (legally) if you drew your CCW pistol (assuming of course you were carrying) and charged into that School "guns-a-blazin" so to speak to save the kids...remember under Federal (as well as my state of Ohio) laws, schools are a gun free zone and a CCW holder is not cop just a private citizen. Have you now just committed a serious prosecutable felony regardless of the effect of your intervention? Even if you manage to kill/capture the assailant?



In our mixed up system of law and governance, I should not be surprised if you get charged with something, and that's if you survive the cops possibly mistaking you for the bad guy.

If you should find yourself in such a situation, flash that badge... a lot.
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paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:25 am

TDPerk wrote:
paperburn1 wrote:Have any of you actually talked to a educator about this issue? It is very enlightening.


It would seem you only talk to one emotionally immature sort of educator.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02- ... after-huge

I smell fish in the stew pot on this one. You do realize the author of the article your quoting goes by the name Tyler Durden :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ( if you don't know he is the sociopath anarchist in the movie fight club) Under Ohio's concealed carry law, school employees must leave their guns in their locked car when they're in a school safety zone, unless they have written permission from the school district to do otherwise. Only a few schools allow carry in the school in the entire state. This same sheriff states that fire drills are not necessary in the school because they may help a shooter. There are no schools in this sheriff district that allow carry at this time. (That of course could be changing soon.) He did have a school in his area of operations that did have a shooting so that might explain the high turn out.
I will pose a wait and see attitude on this and I have stated before I have little objection if there is training, willing volunteers and a safe method of keeping the firearms out of the reach of the children.
I have gotten the opinion of several educators so I dispute your claim.
Once again have you talked to any?

Side note because of Ohio's gun free zones at schools I would postulate that you would be in just as much trouble as the gunman especially if you fired your weapon and possibly hurt someone. Only officers and personnel approved by the school district in writing can have a gun in a school zone . And of course an active shooter.
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choff
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby choff » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:56 am

Pepper spray and tasers, in guns aren't allowed, better than nothing at all.
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ladajo
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby ladajo » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:29 pm

Only officers and personnel approved by the school district in writing can have a gun in a school zone .


Good thing it is a Jury of Peers...

It boggles my mind sometimes how our nation overlooks that we are a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people. (Hat tip John Wycliffe, although he wasn't one of us, he is a key source of our spirit and motivation to migrate...)
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TDPerk
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:56 pm

paperburn1 wrote:I smell fish in the stew pot on this one


No, you smell your own biases. This was reported in many, many, places.

paperburn1 wrote:Once again have you talked to any?



I wonder, why do you keep asking that as if it matters? It doesn't.

The public employees will take the public's money under the public's pre-conditions, or they won't keep the job. The rank of public school teachers are very drastically leftist, I am not concerned with their views.
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paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:32 pm

You might be free in the mountains but when you come to the city you have to play by their rules.

Tyler Durden :D :D :D
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:24 am

This is a thought I had on reading someone else's post and
I want to try to put it together.
For those calling for armed guards at schools. I am not against this idea at all.
My concern is how to pay for it without detracting from the education of the children.
(Yes I know a bullet detracts let's leave that aside) So we take lowering the teachers pay or the number of teachers off the table.
There are about 125,000 public schools in America. For every school we need at least one guard.
Many schools are large and have multiple entrances. They would require more than one.
For the sake of argument let's say 1.5 guards per school. ( I would think the number would be higher but we need something to work with)
This gives us 187,500 guards.
We need to pay them. This is a full time job. So we need a pay scale. Here in TN they would
need less to live than in NYC or Parkland FL or many other places. So.... We don't want them
worrying about money when they are guarding our children so we will pay as much as
the teachers make.
Pulling up a web site starting teacher pay ranges from $27,000 to $51,000 it looks like an good average would be about $35,000.
https://articles.niche.com/teacher-salaries-in-america/
So we are left with 187,500 people making $35,000 a year or $656,250,000 per year.
That is take home pay. Add in the cost of insurance and other benefits and the cost
would be more like $900 million dollars.
Someone said to defund planned parenthood to pay. They get about $500 million a year in
federal funds but most of that is from Medicare. So we would get back about $200 million
in direct grants. We still need to come up with $700 million dollars.
Where do we get this? I am being conservative in my numbers I think. The real cost of ANY
government run organization is usually much higher. Or do we sub-contract it?
Either way where does the money come from? Add to the deficit? Raise taxes?
Thoughts people?
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby Tom Ligon » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:59 pm

Which is why some communities HAVE gone with arming some teachers. They can't afford guards. In small rural systems, it may not be as hard to find wiling teachers. This is a local decision.

Some schools are depending on stats. If there are 125000 public schools in the country, and two a year are hit with a massacre, it probably won't happen to them.

I visited my old high school a couple of weeks back. We had 1600 students, but they are down to about 800. The main entrance has two metal detectors and I saw 3 or 4 uniformed guards. Based on his education, I think the principal's first job may have been cop.

But the school is also begging for donations of basic supplies, like dry erase markers, tissues, and hand sanitizer. West Virginia's teachers are on strike because their pay is so low. We're neglecting them, at least at the teacher level. A little less admin, and a lot less federal regulation, and more for the actual teaching would be a good start.

TDPerk
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:34 pm

paperburn1 wrote:You might be free in the mountains but when you come to the city you have to play by their rules.

Tyler Durden :D :D :D


Nope, the constitution applies everywhere. There are Leftists you seem to collude with who feel differently.

I wish for them the courage of their convictions.

And with respect to those, convictions for themselves are the best they can hope for.
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TDPerk
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:52 pm

paperburn1 wrote:I am not against this idea at all.
My concern is how to pay for it without detracting from the education of the children.
(Yes I know a bullet detracts let's leave that aside)


Such breathtakingly stupid contradictions with in so few words of each other.

No, bullet in and of itself just sits there and does nothing. You thinking anything is you being against the idea.

Do you have any other stupid lies to tell us?
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paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:14 pm

you really seem invested so hard in this idea.

But it is really quite simple. Not everyone can drive, Not everyone can serve in the armed forces. Not everyone can build a house.
This is why we have drivers test, physical and psychological testing, and building codes.

This is what we need before you can purchase a Gun, well thought out testing, training and requirements that suport the right of the majority to bear arms but keeps the minority that are incapable from having access to them.

Just like Donald Trump said in his address the other night, actually he had confiscation without due process as part of his idea. something I vehemently disagree with as an idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK4xgE4iVgw
Personally I think switzerland has figured it out and doing it right.
http://www.iflscience.com/policy/switze ... shootings/
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

williatw
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby williatw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:00 pm

paperburn1 wrote:you really seem invested so hard in this idea.

But it is really quite simple. Not everyone can drive, Not everyone can serve in the armed forces. Not everyone can build a house.
This is why we have drivers test, physical and psychological testing, and building codes.

This is what we need before you can purchase a Gun, well thought out testing, training and requirements that suport the right of the majority to bear arms but keeps the minority that are incapable from having access to them.


We already have allot of condition/ laws that would have prevented him from getting guns if they had actually been used don't we? I mean 35 (or so) police complaints to his residence for instance?

paperburn1 wrote:just like Donald Trump said in his address the other night, actually he had confiscation without due process as part of his idea. something I vehemently disagree with as an idea.


Maybe I am mistaken...but don't the police already have the ability to take your firearms away from you if they deem you a threat to public safety? Say the police are called to a man's house "domestic disturbance" or whatever he is acting "crazy" and/or drunk/high and disorderly...they realize he is armed, they order him to surrender his firearm, (hopefully) without shooting him. They enter the premises discover he has lots of other firearms; couldn't/wouldn't they also confiscate them (under existing law/practices) pending the completion of their investigation? They keep it/them pending due process (whether he will be charged or not)? Don't trust the media reporting too much on what Trump said and the so important context in which he said it. If the cops are called to your house (to say nothing of repeatedly called to your house) and in their judgement think you are acting "crazy", discover you have guns on your person or in your house, I am asking can't/don't they already under existing law take them away from you immediately, and keep them pending the results of their investigation?


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