Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

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TDPerk
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:35 pm

paperburn1 wrote:
TDPerk wrote:
What I see in you paperburn, is a continual pressure to centralize and aggrandize government power. This does not speak well of you.


This is just how things work, people in the court system look out for each other. lawyers, Judges ,LEOs and bail bonds persons.
Cops don't get speeding tickets, lawyers / prosecutors generally work out what is going to happen before they go in front of the Judge. The list goes on.
Bails bondsmen are notoriously quick on the trigger, they have the force of law behind them and they generally have the favor of the court because they provide a valuable service.
Doctors hang out with Doctors, cops hang out with cops, construction workers hang out with construction workers. you generally support the peer group your associated with, that's just being human 101.
Why would they try hard to convict her, she is a valuable member of her peer group? She was legally in the bound of her contract, just not morally.
The person she shot was not. What is legal and what is fair sometimes are very far apart


Uhuh. You have yet to demonstrate she was not morally within the bounds of her contract. You have yet to show Bail bondsmen are "notoriously" quick on the trigger--for someone with their job. They actually seem to do far better than the police. Approving the dissolution of the bail bondmen profession is aggrandizing the state with competence and tasks which it manifestly does not have an at which it manifestly is not better.

It was legal and fair for her to shoot him once he began to be violently non-compliant with her orders to submit to arrest.
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TDPerk
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:40 pm

Diogenes wrote:
TDPerk wrote:
If he didn't want to be shot, and likely shot dead, he needed to submit to the arrest his contract empowered her to place him under.




No reasonable person would assume that someone would shoot them if they attempted to leave through a window of a bail bond office.


A reasonable person is unlikely to need to make bail, and would understand the fact their liberty while out on bail is at the discretion of the bondsman, not their own.

Diogenes wrote:They deliberately let her slip out of a second degree murder conviction.


No, once he violently resisted her arrest, shooting him wasn't murder.
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paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:13 pm

You apparently have trouble with definitions
slavery was legal but morally wrong
Her shooting him in the back was legal but morally wrong.
Sometime I wonder if you are being obtuse on purpose or truly have trouble with definitions.

http://kfor.com/2017/08/15/police-offic ... shoot-man/
http://www.hpenews.com/news/bail-bond-a ... abfd2.html
http://kstp.com/news/private-bail-inves ... p/4500316/
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/c ... 100814608/
http://www.wsmv.com/story/35271170/fami ... ond-agents
http://www.katc.com/story/30152324/2-de ... ond-office
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafe ... ng/2253938
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/loca ... 81782.html

After Carey convinced Williams to stop by her office, she told police the man became upset.
“(Williams) liked hopped up, flipped out, shoved him (referring to her son) and shoved me,” Carey told the officer, according to the affidavit. “I don’t even know how he got the gun, how I had the gun, I just know I pulled the trigger and he went out the window yelling at me ‘You f—–g shot me.'”

When investigators questioned Carey’s son about the fatal shooting, he informed officers there was a GoPro camera in the office that had recorded the incident.
Authorities then watched the recorded video from the GoPro camera and saw Carey’s story did not match up with the video evidence.

This is just a few, In most places of the world the practice has been outlawed, outlawed and restricted in many parts of the US and the only other country I know of is the philippines. The financial aspect has shown too be to great of a obstacle .greed is mightier tham morals.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

TDPerk
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:57 pm

paperburn1 wrote:You apparently have trouble with definitions
slavery was legal but morally wrong
Her shooting him in the back was legal but morally wrong.
Sometime I wonder if you are being obtuse on purpose or truly have trouble with definitions.


I'm certain you have no knowledge--or if you have knowledge, care--for definitions. Slavery is in no way voluntary, albeit, rebellion and/or escape are at least theoretically possible.

Accepting a bail bond contract with a bond agent is always a voluntary thing and never compelled by law, where legal slavery always being a creation of positive law and a violation of rights in toto, is always compelled by law on the slave.

" Her shooting him in the back was legal but morally wrong. "


No, it was morally right. The instant he determines to get away from her custody by force, he is a violent fugitive from the law and he has already explicitly agreed that what force is needed to stop his flight (which by definition can be lethal force if that is what is available) is okay by him. This is different even from a fugitive from police here only implicitly agreeing to the same circumstances by having remained prior in a country where the laws authorize such for the police, and that difference is to the good of the bail bond agent--with her actions being both legal and moral.

Unless you can find evidence to support the notion he was in just rebellion to an unjust law or unjust application of law, then that conclusion stands.
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TDPerk
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:17 pm

paperburn1 wrote:You apparently have trouble with definitions
slavery was legal but morally wrong
Her shooting him in the back was legal but morally wrong.
Sometime I wonder if you are being obtuse on purpose or truly have trouble with definitions.

http://kfor.com/2017/08/15/police-offic ... shoot-man/
http://www.hpenews.com/news/bail-bond-a ... abfd2.html
http://kstp.com/news/private-bail-inves ... p/4500316/
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/c ... 100814608/
http://www.wsmv.com/story/35271170/fami ... ond-agents
http://www.katc.com/story/30152324/2-de ... ond-office
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafe ... ng/2253938
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/loca ... 81782.html

After Carey convinced Williams to stop by her office, she told police the man became upset.
“(Williams) liked hopped up, flipped out, shoved him (referring to her son) and shoved me,” Carey told the officer, according to the affidavit. “I don’t even know how he got the gun, how I had the gun, I just know I pulled the trigger and he went out the window yelling at me ‘You f—–g shot me.'”

When investigators questioned Carey’s son about the fatal shooting, he informed officers there was a GoPro camera in the office that had recorded the incident.
Authorities then watched the recorded video from the GoPro camera and saw Carey’s story did not match up with the video evidence.

This is just a few, In most places of the world the practice has been outlawed, outlawed and restricted in many parts of the US and the only other country I know of is the philippines. The financial aspect has shown too be to great of a obstacle .greed is mightier tham morals.


The video I saw is largely consistent with her description of things. If she made up the idea he had a gun and she got it away from him, she could be fairly charged with obstruction, but the morality of her shooting him once he became violent in his attempts to evade her arrest is certain--it was fine and dandy, and his death an acceptable outcome and possibly preferable--and what he chose by his violent attempt to evade her arrest.

"This is just a few, In most places of the world the practice has been outlawed, outlawed and restricted in many parts of the US and the only other country I know of is the philippines. The financial aspect has shown too be to great of a obstacle .greed is mightier tham morals"

Yes, socialism/totalitarianism/marxism is a thing you believe in, along with the aggrandizement of what is governmental, compulsory, not-private. There is not merely nothing morally wrong with the bail bondsmen trade, this is a good example of how it benefits society. Someone who was determined to be violent in their pursuit of being a fugitive from justice was shot dead. They cannot be a violent fugitive from justice, or jailed at the public expense.

She may well have lied to investigators and committed obstruction of justice, and this may well show she is not fit to be certified to be a bond agent, but nothing about this incident indicts the concept of bail, bail bond agents, or the contracts they traditionally operate under. The fact this man was shot and that he died is not just legal and moral--until and unless you can show he was in rebellion to an unjust law or application of law--it was a positive good outcome for society.

It is as if you are unaware you are literally watching him commit a violent felony on camera, let alone how he is breaking his contract with the bond agent.
Last edited by TDPerk on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:24 pm

so shooting people in the back is how its done in WV
who would have guessed?
That being said the first rule of gunfighting I learn was, if your in a fair fight you made your first mistake.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:54 pm

paperburn1 wrote:so shooting people in the back is how its done in WV
who would have guessed?
That being said the first rule of gunfighting I learn was, if your in a fair fight you made your first mistake.


" so shooting people in the back is how its done in WV who would have guessed? "

Any place lethal force may be used by police to stop a fleeing felon; any citizen in good standing should be able to do the same. When by recent and explicit contract someone has agreed those are the ground rules, all the more so.

If you have a substantive argument to make to the contrary, please make it.

Or, concede she was in the right to shoot him.
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choff
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby choff » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:05 pm

Imagine for a moment the bounty hunter was a man and this shooting victim a woman. He gets her to come to his office under false pretenses, locks the door behind her, produces handcuffs without explaining this is in relation to the prior bail bond conditions, maybe she thought selling the car would settle the debt, she wasn't fleeing when she came into the office of her own free will, she was being cooperative. The bail bondsmen does not explain to her she is being arrested in relation to the bail debt. He very calmly opens the drawer, pulls out the gun, calmly takes aim and shoots her dead.

I put it to you that if the bail bond killer was a man and the shooting victim was a woman the trial outcome would be completely different.

If I was that bail bond killers son, I would be worried that the next time she gets mad about a messy bedroom, she's going to shoot me. She has a callous disregard for human life, she killed for bail money, pure greed.

In my country, we don't have bounty hunters, and if any single one of them crawls into my country from yours and shoots somebody, the police will not hesitate to shoot them. Marshall Dillon was right, no bounty hunters in Dodge City.
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby TDPerk » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:12 pm

choff wrote:Imagine for a ... in Dodge City.


Why imagine a counterfactual set of circumstances. Here, the bailed person was stupid enough to discuss in social media running to Fla, and the bail agent saw it. No such thing as false pretenses, they under their contract can call the person in and arrest them at any time.

What's with the "greed" thing? They should pay someone else's bail for free?

" I put it to you that if the bail bond killer was a man and the shooting victim was a woman the trial outcome would be completely different. "

A reverse "pussy pass". How's that better?

" Marshall Dillon was right, no bounty hunters in Dodge City. "

Marshall Dillon was a TV character who never had to deal with the consequences of a decision the writer's didn't write.
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choff
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby choff » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:41 pm

TDPerk wrote:
choff wrote:Imagine for a ... in Dodge City.


Why imagine a counterfactual set of circumstances. Here, the bailed person was stupid enough to discuss in social media running to Fla, and the bail agent saw it. No such thing as false pretenses, they under their contract can call the person in and arrest them at any time.

He may have discussed fleeing on social media, but he wasn't fleeing when he entered the bail agents office, and once she locked the door, the only way out was a third floor window.

What's with the "greed" thing? They should pay someone else's bail for free?

No, but should that allow her to kill the guy.

" I put it to you that if the bail bond killer was a man and the shooting victim was a woman the trial outcome would be completely different. "

A reverse "pussy pass". How's that better?

When was that last time you heard of a man shooting a cornered unarmed woman and getting away with it.

" Marshall Dillon was right, no bounty hunters in Dodge City. "

Marshall Dillon was a TV character who never had to deal with the consequences of a decision the writer's didn't write.


That's true, but any bounty hunter coming to collect in Canada will end up doing time in the stir before getting deported, very serious time if he shoots anyone.
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby Diogenes » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:46 pm

TDPerk wrote:
It seemed obvious to me from the video he was becoming violent with her in order to leave,



I saw the very opposite. Had he been of a mind to do so, the man could have easily beat the sh*t out of both of them together, and all he seemed to be trying to do was to get out of the window.


Evidence otherwise would be in the form of the autopsy. If it shows bullet entry wounds in his front, then he had been coming toward her. If the bullet entry wounds are in his back or side, then this seriously contradicts her claim of a threat.




TDPerk wrote:and her contract with him gave her the right to use force to seize and arrest him.



She may have had the legal right to arrest him, but the manner in which she attempted it was just stupid. She should have had bigger guys ready to fight with and restrain him. Rather than killing him, she should have just allowed him to leave.






TDPerk wrote:" If someone is not offering a threat, then by what justification can they be killed? " <-- Because they agreed to it beforehand.




Someone agreed to be killed before hand? I think that is an insane opinion.
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby Diogenes » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:48 pm

TDPerk wrote:
It was legal and fair for her to shoot him once he began to be violently non-compliant with her orders to submit to arrest.



You are a funny kind of libertarian.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby Diogenes » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:02 pm

TDPerk wrote:
It is as if you are unaware you are literally watching him commit a violent felony on camera, let alone how he is breaking his contract with the bond agent.



I wanted the bond agent to be in the right, because I don't like criminals, and it doesn't bother me if they get shot deservedly. But what I saw flatly contradicts her being in the right, and I cannot comprehend how you see her as justified in killing a man who was trying to get away from her.


Her son did not say " Way to go Mom! You shot that bastard that was attacking us! He said "Mom! You just shot him!" I read his expression as one of horror, not one of relief.


But you have strangely watched a very different video from what I saw. In your video, the man somehow deserved to be shot.


I would have voted for conviction of manslaughter in the second degree. The woman went too far. She didn't even fire a warning shot, and if he was shot in the back, (as seems to be the case) then he was no threat to her whatsoever.


I think she shot him because he disrespected her "Woman power" by refusing to submit to her control.


It's a very stupid thing for women to try to manhandle men.
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choff
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby choff » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:52 pm

His last words were, "What are you doing this to me for(Ma'am)?", not the words of someone being an aggressor, more like a person appealing for reason.
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paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:17 pm

choff wrote:His last words were, "What are you doing this to me for(Ma'am)?", not the words of someone being an aggressor, more like a person appealing for reason.


And the circle finally closes, the original question was "why did she get away with her actions?'
The simple answer was she was only charged with murder in the first degree.
She did not meet the requirements for that, " person is found guilty of first degree murder when murder is perpetrated by means of poison, lying in wait, or any other willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing." there was no malice involved.
As to why she did not face other charges? - who know, I can guess , but who know Will she face lesser charges? Jeopardy will most likely apply in this case. So no.
All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others - Animal farm George Orwell 1945
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