For What Are You Willing To Be A Slave?

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MSimon
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For What Are You Willing To Be A Slave?

Postby MSimon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:54 am


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Postby GIThruster » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:31 pm

"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

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Postby MSimon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:07 pm


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Postby Skipjack » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:27 pm


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Postby MSimon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:46 pm


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Postby Skipjack » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:29 am


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Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:56 am


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Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:24 am

So let me ask the relevant questions again.

The power to tax is the power to enslave.

For what are you willing to be a slave?

For what are you willing to enslave others?

The last question is the morality question.

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Postby Skipjack » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:37 pm


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Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:35 pm


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Postby Skipjack » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:57 pm


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Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:14 pm


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Postby Skipjack » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:32 am


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Postby chrismb » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:02 am

No human has ever been free, in the sense you describe it.

Even before we evolved, when sub-humans were tribal they either did homage to the Chief, or if one was the Chief in which case they had obligations of duty to their people.

In feudal schemes, the surf may be obligated to a vassal, who is obligated to their Lord who is obligated to their King. The King must perform his duties diligently within confining constraints for fear of his removal from the throne and/or execution.

In 'less feudual times', an apprentice was tied to a journeyman (for fear of imprisonment if he did not complete his apprenticeship) and then as journeyman must ply his craft under the obligations of a guild, in turn under the obligations of the County.

And what of today? The obligation of working 40 hours a week lest you fail to meet your payments necessary to fulfil payments of 'necessary' things, and further those pesky taxes. The obligation of custodianship of owned capital that society needs to hold in good order else it collapses. The obligation to act properly and with decorum so that others around may act co-operatively for the betterment of society. The family-man now committed to 20 years or more of laborious delivery unto his family.

What is freedom? It is the removal from the obligations of others. It is turning away from the societal norms that hold it together. It is saying 'I do not need any of the things you say my taxes must pay for'. And so you lose social securities. You lose roads to drive on. You lose access to builders who may build your house. You lose the military and the mechanism of the law - for all its faults - to protect you. For these things only exist through co-operation, and co-operation is impossible without some fundamental level of coercion, be it overt such as taxes, or indirect such as a sense of social duty.

So you reject these things, and instead you wander, free as a bird [non-roosting, as that is an instinctive behaviour of obligation!], into the forest yonder, for you now detest the rules, laws and obligations from being an actor in a society and an industrial infrastructure that might otherwise offer you its conveniences, lest you must pay dues and co-operate with their requirements before doing so. And there you are, with only your wit intellect and freedom, and now you struggle with your bare hands to make a house from the wood of the forest. You struggle long and hard through bitter winters without all those fuels supplied to you by services that essentially depend on a coherent social infrastructure that you have now rejected.

And then, someone else comes to you. Also unburdened by all those obligations of society. And he kills you for what you have built, because he is free to do so. If only you had accepted to work with a group of people that could collectively protect themselves, but, alas, to work with others who may set their own rules on your behaviour is anathema to you, and, so, there your cold corpse lies. There's no-one to even bury you. Your body is now picked at by a lone scavenging animal. There you both are, together; the two most freest of creatures.

We trade our freedom for societal benefits. Some societal benefits require payment of dues. It is a place to argue that some such due do not go towards useful benefits, that is the nature of politics to argue such things. But there is no case to argue that we might decide whether to enslave ourselves for the benefits and protections we receive, for this is a given. It is an inevitability. You would be unable to even discuss this point were it not for the fact that you have already accepted this principle. You are only ever released from this enslavement at the end of your mortal coil.

Therefore, the three questions to which you must confine yourself are simply;

- do we, as individuals, receive a net benefit from some given obligation we are made to undertake?
- do we, as a society, receive a net benefit from some given obligation we are made to undertake?
- are those two things reasonably balanced?

If you do not care to confine your concerns to these questions, then the freedom you seek is the freedom of the jungle. You do not need to persuade anyone of this, you merely need to walk into a jungle and remain there.

I would not seek to enslave you. But I may have obligations I need you to undertake, for the betterment of either yourself and/or for all. Are my obligations an 'enslavement'? If so, then it is an inevitability.

"For what are you willing to enslave others?"... for society to function. But the magnitude of enslavement should be no more than is absolutely necessary. As you do not define the question by degree, it is a leading question.


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