For What Are You Willing To Be A Slave?

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

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seedload
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Postby seedload » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:35 pm

Skipjack wrote:
If we understand government as a gang of thieves balance will be restored.

Ok, I guess your worldview is different from mine. I dont see government as a band of thieves. I see government as a provider of a service (or many services for that matter).
Of course like any other service provider, I have to pay for the services I receive.
The difference is that- unfortunately- we have to bow to the opinion of the majority in regards to what services we receive and how much we have to pay for them. It is not always fair and not always perfect, but I have yet to see a better system.


The only service I have ever received from the federal government are those spelled out in the enumerated powers. You know, the ones that make sense.

Other than those, I have never received a single thing from the federal government. Not one service. Not one cent.

When some people pay for services without receiving and others receive without paying then some people tend to think of it as thievery - at least those doing the paying do. When those receiving outnumber those paying, then the end is near. You claim not to have seen a better system. But you haven't even seen this system to its conclusion. The band-aids won't work forever. The numbers don't add up. Eventually, it is going to crash.

The better system was when the federal government had a list of powers that it was supposed to take care of - and nothing else.

Regards
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:00 pm

No I mean any government.

A pure democracy is a majoritarian hellhole at best. Constitutional republics at least require supermajorities to attempt the injustices a pure democracy does with on 50% + 1.

Every other government is worse, including parliamentarian centralised states, like is all but universally found in Europe.

Well in Austria you need a two third majority for laws that required constitutional changes. Not sure if that counts.
The rule of the majority is still better than the rule of a minority, or an elite, or a single person, no?

Other than those, I have never received a single thing from the federal government. Not one service. Not one cent.

So the government is not protecting your country?
What about education? Your parents fully paid for your schooling?
What about science programs? You have never benefited from the insights gained from one of the many science and engineering programs funded by the federal government? Do you refuse to use power from nuclear power plants?
What about things like interstate roads, federal police, air traffic control (which I am pretty sure is handled by the federal government), the FAA, the FDA, the CDC, etc, etc.
You have never used or benefited from any of these things in any way?

seedload
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Postby seedload » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:11 pm

Skipjack wrote:
Other than those, I have never received a single thing from the federal government. Not one service. Not one cent.

So the government is not protecting your country?
What about education? Your parents fully paid for your schooling?
What about science programs? You have never benefited from the insights gained from one of the many science and engineering programs funded by the federal government? Do you refuse to use power from nuclear power plants?
What about things like interstate roads, federal police, air traffic control (which I am pretty sure is handled by the federal government), the FAA, the FDA, the CDC, etc, etc.
You have never used or benefited from any of these things in any way?


"Other than those" meaning other than the enumerated powers. I think I was clear.

Yes, my government protects the country. It's an enumerated power.

Yes, my parents and I paid for my education together. I have worked since I was 12. I worked through college. We took no federal loans and received no aid.

Yes, I have benefited from interstate roads and some of the agencies you mention. They are at least debated as dealing with interstate commerce - an enumerated power.

Sure I take power from light water reactors that were researched as part of national defense - an enumerated power.

I suppose I drank NASA tang once or twice too and looked at a pretty picture of mars if you want to count that as me leaching off the government dole. I have seen pictures of crosses in glasses of piss too. Maybe you could assign a monitary value to that. I don't know. But then again, promoting science and art is enumerated - sorta.

But, of course, you know what I was talking about. Never unemployed. Never on disability. Never took a federally assisted loan. Never used a food stamp. Never on welfare. Never a social security benefit. Always paid for my own health care. Bought my own milk at school lunches. Paid my way through college with my parents and no loans or aid.

I suppose someday I will want a tiny fraction of my social security contributions back, but I know it won't be nearly close to what I put in.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:18 pm

Never unemployed. Never on disability. Never took a federally assisted loan. Never used a food stamp. Never on welfare. Never a social security benefit. Always paid for my own health care. Bought my own milk at school lunches. Paid my way through college with my parents and no loans or aid.

And neither have I...
Even with my heart attack I am probably still a net payer into the healthcare system, here, or at least it is a close call. My wife is really anjoying her maternity leave though and I think our son's development does benefit from it enormously. Seeing how we need more children in our countries, I think that this is a good thing to have.

Yes, my parents and I paid for my education together. I have worked since I was 12. I worked through college. We took no federal loans and received no aid.

Admirable. Did you go to all private schools?

seedload
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Postby seedload » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:37 pm

Skipjack wrote:Admirable. Did you go to all private schools?


I went to public schools.

Public schools are paid for mainly with local property taxes and state money. Not federal.

Yes, some money is confiscated by the Federal government (probably illegally) and then redistributed back to the states if the states are nice enough to do what the fed dictates. I suppose that could be thought of as some kinda federal benefit to me, but ultimately, as with all of these federal tax to bribe the states schemes, the money is administered by the state. And, not surprisingly, it is a net loss to people that are in average or better school districts. Certainly, if my parents federal taxes that went to education had gone to local taxes for local education, I would have been better off. It would be very hard to convince me that I got some meaningful benefit from the department of education.

Regards
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:06 pm

Alright, gotcha.
Of course there are those people that are not purists that will argue that defense against desease is just as important as defense against foreign nations...

WizWom
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Postby WizWom » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:12 pm

I am an independent person, I believe in personal liberty, minimal government and personal responsibility.

Being on Disability, which I have drawn out about what I paid in after only 5 years, I feel frustrated. If I didn't have the disability, I'd be homeless again, which is not fun.

I can claim all I want about how libertarian I am, but when push came to shove, I took advantage of the system in place.
Of course, I'm not sitting around on disability, I'm going to college, getting a new skill which might let me work, and have even been accepted into grad school. But that, too, is through a government program.

Would my life end if Disability and vocational training programs were cancelled? Nope.

So, really, I would love to see both cancelled, with some sort of direct service to take care of those who want food and housing: but giving them no opportunity for personal dignity while sponging off the rest of us. My apartment is $365 a month; even a crappy job could cover it. Other people should not be paying for me to have a life with dignity.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:53 am

WizWom, I think that everyone, even those that dont want to admit it, will one day need the help of others in their country. We all get older, whether we want to admit it or not. At some point it will catch up with us. Nobody is absolutely save from having an accident that leaves them disabled. I dont want to see anyone having to live in the streets because they were unfortunate. The conservatives always seem to think that everyone who has had some unfortune happen to them, somehow deserved it. The religious right probably thinks that these people were not christian enough, did not pray enough, or were not righteous enough.
I think that they were just unfortunate. I dont see why someone with bad luck should not have the right to live in dignity and maybe a fighting chance to get out of the mess again.
I also see a more practical part to this. If you have a large mob that has nothing and nothing to loose, you might face civil unrest or worse. So it is a matter of defense to the inside as well.

vernes
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Postby vernes » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:32 am

Eternal Life <- (maintaining an acceptable quality of life forever)

(sorry for not joining the flamewar, I just felt like answering the question)

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:08 am

I dont want to see anyone having to live in the streets because they were unfortunate.


Excellent. Why don't you do it with your money? Why does the government have to take a cut for you to do the right thing?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:07 pm

Why don't you do it with your money?

I have done that and I continue to do that by paying my taxes?

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:15 pm

Skipjack wrote:
Why don't you do it with your money?

I have done that and I continue to do that by paying my taxes?


Wouldn't you get more bang for the buck if you cut out the middleman?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Postby Skipjack » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:40 pm

Wouldn't you get more bang for the buck if you cut out the middleman?

The problem is that many people would not be doing this, if they were not obligated to do so. This is the whole reason why the government is doing this and is collecting taxes to do so. Most people would not even bother giving their share for all these "enumerated" things the government is accepted to be doing by most, even libertarians.
People usually dont understand the need for these things until they need them themselves. I was once like that.

seedload
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Postby seedload » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:24 pm

Skipjack wrote:The conservatives always seem to think that everyone who has had some unfortune happen to them, somehow deserved it.


Wow. My experience is that very few people think like that, even evil conservatives. It takes a lot of hate to assume that kind of thinking exists in so many people.

The religious right probably thinks that these people were not christian enough, did not pray enough, or were not righteous enough.


Again, my experience is that most Christians are very, how do I say this, Christian. In general, some of the absolute nicest, most understanding, and most forgiving people I have ever met in my life are what you would call right wing religious.

Honestly, I believe that your perceptions of people are skewed.

Regards
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:25 pm

Skipjack wrote:
Wouldn't you get more bang for the buck if you cut out the middleman?

The problem is that many people would not be doing this, if they were not obligated to do so. This is the whole reason why the government is doing this and is collecting taxes to do so. Most people would not even bother giving their share for all these "enumerated" things the government is accepted to be doing by most, even libertarians.
People usually dont understand the need for these things until they need them themselves. I was once like that.


Ah. So you live in a country where the greedy predominate. No wonder you want to leave.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.


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