Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forever

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MSimon
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Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forever

Post by MSimon »

http://classicalvalues.com/2013/05/proh ... n-forever/

It is pretty disgusting when the core of the Republican Party acts like Jim Crow Democrats on this issue.

And the end result will be the same - the Democrats will take credit for ending Prohibition despite having started it (in cahoots with "Christian" "conservatives" I might add).

I see another 1932 in the Republican's future.

The link is about how the Democrats plan to use the issue of ending prohibition to defeat the Republicans.
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TDPerk
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by TDPerk »

""in cahoots with "Christian" "conservatives" I might add"

I suppose your use of scare quotes is your recognition they weren't conservatives of any sort, but were good government progressives?

And of course that there's nothing in Christianity to supporting the confusion of Christ's with Caesar's work?
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MSimon
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by MSimon »

TDPerk wrote:""in cahoots with "Christian" "conservatives" I might add"

I suppose your use of scare quotes is your recognition they weren't conservatives of any sort, but were good government progressives?

And of course that there's nothing in Christianity to supporting the confusion of Christ's with Caesar's work?
Quite so.

There is also a school of thought these days that the anointing oil was heavy with cannabis. It treats the same conditions that cannabis is known to treat.

http://classicalvalues.com/2011/09/hebrew-etymology/

This etymology is of course disputed.

As we learn more about the endocannabinoid system there is no doubt that cannabis is medicine. And denying medicine to the sick is a crime against humanity.

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necoras
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by necoras »

the Democrats will take credit for ending Prohibition despite having started it
You stated the problem with that assertion in your own post:
It is pretty disgusting when the core of the Republican Party acts like Jim Crow Democrats on this issue.
The Democrats of the 1800s are not the Democrats of today. And the Republicans of yesteryear are not the Republicans of today. The people who made up those parties all died long ago. Today the Democrats are the party of ethnic diversity, social equality, and loosening attitudes on marijuana. Today the Republicans are the party of white people, religiously driven social bigotry, and religiously driven views on drugs and those who use them.

You may not like that Republicans are largely against the legalization of marijuana, but that's where a large portion of the party is today. Now, if you can manage to get the religion out of the party, then you might see movement towards legalization. We see that already with libertarian leaning politicians. But until the majority of the party is more interested in Small Government than they are in Christian (because the 1st amendment only applies to non-Christian religions that we don't like) Government I don't expect you'll see much movement there.

hanelyp
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by hanelyp »

Democrats, then and now, are a party of group identity, different laws for different groups, and forcing one group to work for the benefit of another group. The gripes Bastiat had about the "democrats" of his day fit the modern democrat party to a T.

American Conservatives (not necessarily "republicans") recognize individual identity, Rights and Responsibility, and equality for all before the law.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

necoras
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by necoras »

group identity
So, Citizens vs Illegal Aliens? Christians vs Muslims/Atheists? Job Creators vs Employees? Pro life vs pro choice?
different laws for different groups
Those who make their money via income vs capital? Poor black drug users vs middle class white drug users (or does that not count since it's the way the laws are applied vs the way they're written? If that's the case, then crack vs cocaine sentencing guidelines) Legalized racial profiling in Arizona? Marriage (and all of the legal and economic rights that are associated with it in America) for heterosexual couples, but not for homosexual ones? The sequester cutting funds for the poorest citizens (SNAP, SMART), but airports, used disproportionately by businessmen and politicians, being exempted?
forcing one group to work for the benefit of another group
CEOs with salaries up to 1700 times that of the average employee, while dismantling the ability of those employees to unionize? Economic subsidies for multi-billion dollar multinational corporations while cutting subsidies for poor citizens? Farm bills which subsidize millionaires, but punish individual farmers?


I know that you believe these things, but they often do not reflect reality. Politicians (on both sides) support subsidies for few wealthy donors at the expense of the majority. Conservatives actively work to legally exclude those they do not like, or have religious objections towards. It's often couched in economic terms, but it usually boils down to bigotry and fear when you take a closer look.

So long as we vote, and even have discussions, with "Us vs Them" mindsets nothing will get done. Labels on groups of people can be useful conversational shortcuts. However, when we view the groups as the labels, and all of the associated mental baggage each of us applies to those labels, rather as people then we're doing more harm than good.

You see Democrats as greedy, money grubbing, selfish, thieves, who just want your hard earned dollars to give them to lazy bums on the street. Republicans (or Conservatives if you'd rather phrase it that way) are often seen as greedy, money grubbing, selfish, corporate thieves, who don't want to contribute to the society which allowed them to become wealthy in the first place. Neither of those views is particularly accurate. So long as those are the pictures each side has in their heads of the other it becomes next to impossible to work together.

Try to look at the reality of a situation rather than how people's actions fit into the model (beneficial or detrimental) you have of them in your head.

Stubby
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by Stubby »

hanelyp wrote:Democrats, then and now, are a party of group identity, different laws for different groups, and forcing one group to work for the benefit of another group. The gripes Bastiat had about the "democrats" of his day fit the modern democrat party to a T.

American Conservatives (not necessarily "republicans") recognize individual identity, Rights and Responsibility, and equality for all before the law.
Individual identity includes the possibility of a homosexual identity?
Do homosexuals have the same rights as non-homosexuals?
Are homosexuals equal in all aspects before the law?
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by cgray45 »

Be honest, I see both democrats and republicans as pretty wedded to our current drug war. Yeah there's been some minor movements, but nothign major and I think we need to remember that John Q Republican and James Q Democrat often both recieve a lot of funding from teh same sources. The prison industrial complex is a bipartisan affair.
Check out my blog-- not just about fusion, but anything that attracts this 40 something historians interest.

necoras
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by necoras »

Yes and no. People who historically lean Democratic (most notably the ACLU) are speaking out against marijuana laws more than traditional Republican groups.

Interestingly Washington and Colorado aren't strong liberal states.

However, in general I agree that a politician is a politician is a politician. They'll largely go along to get rich and powerful.

williatw
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by williatw »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/0 ... d%3D339198


Longtime Marijuana Use Linked With Decreased Motivation, Study Finds

The stereotype of pot smokers as lackadaisical loafers is supported by new research: People who smoke marijuana regularly over long periods of time tend to produce less of a chemical in the brain that is linked to motivation, a new study finds.
Researchers in the United Kingdom scanned the brains of 19 regular marijuana users, and 19 nonusers of the same sex and age, using positron emission tomography (PET), which helps measure the distribution of chemicals throughout the brain.

They found that the long-term cannabis users tended to produce less dopamine, a "feel good" chemical in the brain that plays an important role in motivation and reward-driven behavior. [Trippy Tales: The History of 8 Hallucinogens]

Study participants who smoked marijuana regularly, and those who began using the drug at a younger age, had lower levels of dopamine in a part of the brain called the striatum, which could be why cannabis users appear to lack motivation.

However, "whether such a syndrome exists is controversial," said study lead author Michael Bloomfield, a researcher at the Institute of Clinical Sciences at Imperial College London.

The people in the study used cannabis quite heavily, they all began using the drug between ages 12 and 18, and they all had experienced symptoms of psychosis while under the influence, the researchers said. Some of these symptoms include experiencing strange sensations while on the drug, or having bizarre thoughts, such as thinking they were being threatened by an unknown force.




Because increased dopamine production has been linked with psychosis, the researchers expected to find higher levels of dopamine in the cannabis users, but instead, their findings suggested the opposite.

Previous studies looking at marijuana's effects on the brain have shown that chronic marijuana use may trigger inflammation in the brain, which could affect coordination and learning, and that cannabis users have a higher risk of schizophrenia.

But the new results suggest more research is needed to understand the potential links between chronic marijuana use and mental illnesses.

"It has been assumed that cannabis increases the risk of schizophrenia by inducing the same effects on the dopamine system that we see in schizophrenia, but this hasn't been studied in active cannabis users until now," Bloomfield said in a statement. The results tie in with previous addiction research showing that substance abusers have altered dopamine systems.

The findings could explain behaviors commonly seen in marijuana users, not only those who may suffer psychosis symptoms or dependence, although further study is needed to better understand the link, the researchers said.

They also said the brain changes are likely reversible — previous studies did not find differences in dopamine production between former marijuana users and people who were never regular users of marijuana.

The detailed results of the study were published online June 29 in the journal Biological Psychiatry.

Diogenes
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by Diogenes »

Why did you have to put that in this thread? It would have been more appropriate over in "Latest Drug crazed loons." or anywhere but in this soapbox thread.

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MSimon
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Re: Prohibition now, prohibition tomorrow, prohibition forev

Post by MSimon »

williatw,

The problem with all these studies is that they do not tell us if pot use was the cause or the result of low dopamine. i.e. was it self medication?

To do that with any kind of reliability you would need to watch 100K to 1 million people from birth to at least age 30 doing comprehensive chemical work ups ever few months. And a DNA map at birth.

No one will pay for that.

So instead we get correlation studies. Which are useless for making policy since we know nothing about: cause ---> effect.

There are more endocannabinoid receptors in the body than any other receptor type. The endocannabinoid system is a major regulator in the body implicated in almost all diseases including cancer.

=====

Question? Do we see the same things with the use of other anti-depressants? That my be a clue. Because pot is quite similar to them. They (almost all) cause brain cell multiplication.

Another thing to look at is PTSD. Is it amotivational? Yes it is. Are people with PTSD helped by pot? Yes they are.

====

And 19 test subjects with 19 controls? Laughable. And D. You should know that. You can't tell anything from a study like that unless you know the response (amotivation) is large. We do not know that. Because all we see are the extreme cases - due to prohibition. The people who do not have decreased motivation from pot use are not seen.

But OK. Does alcohol cause amotivation? If so wouldn't it be good to switch alcohol users from a substance that kills brain cells to one that regenerates them?

http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/02/w ... ic-deaths/

=====

The body's endocannabinoid production peaks in the 15 to 25 age range. And - SURPRISE - cannabis use peaks in the 15 to 25 age range.

=====

It surprises me that even my allies do not study the subject in depth. Odd on a board with such a bright cohort. All you have to do to make people stupid and uninterested is mention the word "drugs". Evidently the word has magical properties.
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