The Libertarians Are Coming

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kunkmiester
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby kunkmiester » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:51 pm

Libertarianism originates from anarchist origins, what I like to call "intellectual anarchism" since we have a lot of morons who like to get together and engage in property destruction in the name of "anarchy" when all it really is is chaos. The thing with prostitution is that if you're arguing for rights to do as you please, you cannot limit people from making some bad choices. If government cannot force my choice on what I want on my car, they cannot do the same for occupation, even if it leads to prostitution being legal. Mostly it's just a scare tactic--once the logic and morality are understood, it's reasonable even if undesirable. By pointing out opposition to moral laws, the conservatives lambaste them and make them look to be idiots and dangerous.

The basic principle behind libertarianism and intellectual anarchism(people who actually think about it, instead of just trying to be "rebels) is called "non-aggression." Do not initiate force(or fraud, though that's a bit of intellectual work to get to) against another. All other rules come out of that one. No rule that provides for any exception to this rule is morally acceptable. This includes government. No such thing as "legitimate" initiation of force.

big "L" libertarians and conservatives accept the idea of a "social contract" I can be held accountable to even though I never signed it. Even "minarchists" think that some sort of monopoly power is needed for some functions of society. This means taxes, and police, and so forth. Supposedly a properly limited government would abide by these moral limits.

Anarchists do not accept any of that. You cannot initiate violence, you cannot hire a thug to initiate violence, you cannot hire police to initiate violence, etc, no matter how noble or important the cause. It's immoral. Government is systemically unable to exist without the exercise of "legitimate use of force--" and %100 of the time expands beyond whatever limits are set on it--so government is inherently immoral and wrong, on top of being corrupt and untrustable.

The myth of a "limited" government is fading. It's proven unworkable with the Constitution--parchment cannot bind men who do not wish to be bound. The world will try again eventually, seeking more and better cords to tie. Those too will fail though--the ultimate destination of government is six feet under in history, a footnote on how men managed to deceive themselves into slavery for so long.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

MSimon
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby MSimon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:51 pm

kunkmiester,

The anarchists were/are socialists. The Libertarians (especially the Party) of the US are not anarchists. They are a small government party. Like the Republicans claim to be.

Libertarians (the Party) are not followers of Kropotkin. They are in fact a breakaway faction of the Republican Party. They couldn't stomach Nixon's wage and price controls.

I'm surprised that with your vast store of knowledge that that information escaped you.

David Nolan, whose opposition to the Vietnam War and President Richard M. Nixon’s wage and price controls impelled him in 1971 to join with a few friends to found the Libertarian Party to fight against government power, died Sunday in Tucson. He was 66.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/us/23nolan.html?_r=0


It ain't what we know that hurts us near as much as what we know that ain't so.

===

On the rest I pretty much agree. The Constitution and big government can't co-exist. You are in fact correct that neither Party as they exist today wants small government. But the rise of the youth towards libertarianism give me hope that a lot will be trimmed. Over time.

0bamaCare and Drug Prohibition have done us a LOT of good. Kids will know the bad stuff in their bones. Out of my wallet (0bamaCare), out of my bedroom (Drug Prohibition) - are the new generation's sign posts.
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MSimon
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby MSimon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:16 pm

Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Oaths in this country are as yet universally considered as sacred obligations. That which you have taken, and so solemnly repeated on that venerable ground, is an ample pledge of your sincerity and devotion to your country and its government. - John Adams

I don't think he means by moral what most of our social conservative friends in this day take the meaning to be.

1. Keep your word
2. Do not lie
3. Do not cheat
4. Do not steal
5. Husband your resources
6. Take responsibility for everything you do
7. Make every act an intentional act
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
http://protonboron.com/
THE OPEN POLYWELL FUSION CONSORTIUM

MSimon
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby MSimon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:48 pm

The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society. — Thomas Jefferson
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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GIThruster
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby GIThruster » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:19 am

Diogenes wrote:If the stink doesn't leave the walls of the bedroom, I won't be able to smell it.

Yes, but it always leaves. One needs to open the windows from time to time and the neighbors come to see what was all the racket.

It's common for people to phrase their rhetoric around what happens privately, but we all know decisions about what is legal privately instantly effect what happens publicly. Relaxing or removing laws against sodomy back in the 70's was what caused the Gay Pride movement to get in people's faces and truly set the LGBT community back 20 years. Relaxing laws against beastiality in Europe caused those laws to be replaced by stricter laws than those they had had originally. It's never a case of restricting behavior in the bedroom. People who do illegal things in the bedroom (or the barn) seldom get caught. The laws restrict people celebrating illegal activity. So we do have people abducting and enslaving others for sexual reasons, but they don't celebrate this publicly so it remains a tiny fraction of people whom otherwise might have an interest.

So despite what Tea might like you promote, there are obviously social sanction functions served by outlawing some bedroom activity. It's amazing to me this ever needs to be explained to anyone. I mean, does it really or was Tea just promoting sloppy thinking for his own reasons?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

TDPerk
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby TDPerk » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:12 am

Yes, but it always leaves. One needs to open the windows from time to time and the neighbors come to see what was all the racket.


I love how you guilelessly, witlessly pretend the interference of busybodies poking their noses in windows is justification in your infantile eyes, for interference there.

No outcome, however tragic, at Sandy Hook justifies the police going door to door to confiscate arms--yet by your lights it is perfectly just.

We would be better off if the enforcing officers were shot dead.
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

kunkmiester
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby kunkmiester » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:22 am

The anarchists were/are socialists.
It should be no surprise that anarchism gets hyphenated with everything else. Right to life, liberty, and pursuit of property come from the non-aggression principle. It's hard to justify "anarcho-communism" due to the definition of property. "Leftist" anarchists are considered as reasonable as the rest of collectivism coming out of Marx et al.

The Libertarian party came from the idea that you could actually vote the government out of power. Won't happen.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

Diogenes
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby Diogenes » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:43 pm

kunkmiester wrote:
The myth of a "limited" government is fading. It's proven unworkable with the Constitution--parchment cannot bind men who do not wish to be bound. The world will try again eventually, seeking more and better cords to tie. Those too will fail though--the ultimate destination of government is six feet under in history, a footnote on how men managed to deceive themselves into slavery for so long.



I read your comment several times in an effort to understand it. I failed.


Could you be clearer on what it is you are attempting to say?
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby Diogenes » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:29 pm

MSimon wrote:Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Oaths in this country are as yet universally considered as sacred obligations. That which you have taken, and so solemnly repeated on that venerable ground, is an ample pledge of your sincerity and devotion to your country and its government. - John Adams

I don't think he means by moral what most of our social conservative friends in this day take the meaning to be.

1. Keep your word
2. Do not lie
3. Do not cheat
4. Do not steal
5. Husband your resources
6. Take responsibility for everything you do
7. Make every act an intentional act



You are seemingly unfamiliar with John Adams. No, he means RELIGIOUS. He means BELIEVING IN GOD. By Today's standards, John Adams would be an extreme religious fanatic.

He would be regarded as worse than the worst TV Preacher of which any of us have knowledge. He is FAR MORE EXTREME than the worst of the worst of the Social Conservatives of which you speak with disdain on a regular basis.

Here's a sample.


The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this Earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government – but that which is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words, damnation.


Here's another example:


"The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.


–John Adams



Now I will have to add, that John Adams was very much a proponent of tolerating other denominations, and to some extent other religions, but he was very much Pro-Christian, and regarded it as integral part of civil society.


The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)




What disdain for religion he expressed appears mostly directed at the structure of Catholics and Anglicans, but this is not unusual for someone of Puritan extraction.


What did he think of Atheism?


Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.
John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson (19 April 1817)
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

MSimon
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby MSimon » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:44 pm

TDPerk wrote:
Yes, but it always leaves. One needs to open the windows from time to time and the neighbors come to see what was all the racket.


I love how you guilelessly, witlessly pretend the interference of busybodies poking their noses in windows is justification in your infantile eyes, for interference there.

No outcome, however tragic, at Sandy Hook justifies the police going door to door to confiscate arms--yet by your lights it is perfectly just.

We would be better off if the enforcing officers were shot dead.

From the link:
The police who are charged to serve and protect have become willing weapons against law-abiding citizens exercising their constitutional rights.

All they have to do to get in your door is say they smelled marijuana. That then gives them the "right" to ransack your house. They are already doing this as I have noted elsewhere on this board.
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MSimon
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby MSimon » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:12 pm

D,

Adams was quite familiar with atheists. He had no ill will for them in so far as I can tell.

So how can a people be moral without religion? You ought to ponder that question. I have and laid down what I thought were some good rules. In any case the coming generation is not very religious so that is an important question. And of course the Libertarian Party - which is gaining philosophical if not political power (yet) is VERY atheist friendly. And given the popularity of the Paul's they also seem to be socon friendly. In my local area there is a libertarian socon who blogs occasionally that I am very friendly with. Here are some links:

http://tmbridgeland.hubpages.com/hub/Libertarian-Libertarians-Politics-Human-Nature-Fail-Failure

I wrote some about him here: http://classicalvalues.com/2012/07/a-social-look-at-libertarianism/

I know you hang out at Reason from time to time. You will note that those favoring Pax Americana are getting a respectful hearing. Something I had not seen in decades past. The isolationist wing is not exactly on the run. But it seems to have been trimmed some.

BTW given your own irreligion don't you find it ironic to be promoting religion? Kind of hard to make a case for - "you should believe this, I don't." Or "it would be good for me if you believed this." Yeah. It would be good for me if you believed I was God. Gifts accepted. You CAN buy my favor. For a while. Heh.
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Stubby
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby Stubby » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:09 am

Diogenes wrote:What did he think of Atheism?


Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.
John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson (19 April 1817)


Atheism is not involved with religion. It addresses the lack of belief in gods.
Not surprising you make another error regarding atheism.

Since Adams is referring to a lack of religion, it seems that he is taking a swipe at deism. This would make sense since many of the FF were thought to be deists.
Critical elements of deist thought included:

Rejection of religions based on books that claim to contain the revealed word of God.
Rejection of religious dogma and demagogy.
Skepticism of reports of miracles, prophecies and religious "mysteries".


Thank the deists for 1st amendment.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

paperburn1
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:03 am

Not sure when you got that idea,Deism holds that God does not intervene with the functioning of the natural world in any way, allowing it to run according to the laws of nature. For Deists, human beings can only know God via reason and the observation of nature, but not by revelation or supernatural manifestations (such as miracles) – phenomena which Deists regard with caution if not skepticism. This in no way means they reject outright the possibility of miracles, just view them with caution.
Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but ultimately rejected many fundamental doctrines of conventional Christianity, such as the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, becoming a Unitarian. In his youth, Adams' father urged him to become a minister, but Adams refused, considering the practice of law to be a more noble calling. Although he once referred to himself as a "church going animal," Adams' view of religion overall was rather ambivalent: He recognized the abuses, large and small, that religious belief lends itself to, but he also believed that religion could be a force for good in individual lives and in society at large. His extensive reading (especially in the classics), led him to believe that this view applied not only to Christianity, but to all religions.
As for the first amendment....
Adams was aware of (and wary of) the risks, such as persecution of minorities and the temptation to wage holy wars, that an established religion poses. Nonetheless, he believed that religion, by uniting and morally guiding the people, had a role in public life. And also believed there should be no state approved religion,after all his ancestors came over on the mayflower to escape such a thing.
I can not speak for the other founding fathers at large, but will look into in as you have roused my curiosity
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TDPerk
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby TDPerk » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:17 pm

"Atheism is not involved with religion. It addresses the lack of belief in gods."

Atheism is the faith there is no God. It is a religion.
molon labe

montani semper liberi

para fides paternae patria

GIThruster
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Re: The Libertarians Are Coming

Postby GIThruster » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:09 pm

TDPerk wrote:I love how you guilelessly, witlessly pretend the interference of busybodies poking their noses in windows is justification in your infantile eyes, for interference there.

It's figurative speech, not literal; you moron. Seriously Perky, you need to go back and finish high school.

Or maybe read the rest of the post where I state in very specific terms what you're ignoring?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis


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