Iraq is falling

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GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Re: Iraq is falling

Post by GIThruster »

Skipjack wrote:Should have never gone there to begin with. Saddam was an asshole and he did kill a lot of his people, but at least his country was comparably safe and stable. Removing him clearly made things worse. Everyone but the US and GB saw this coming. This is why no one supported that war. I predicted that this would happen back then and now we have the mess. These people are not culturally ready for democracy. The argument to leave US troops there is not valid. We could not have left them there forever. It was too costly in both money and lives of US troops. How many more Americans were supposed to die for this?
Sorry but none of that is correct. Suggest you get the facts: http://www.hulu.com/watch/419214
We had turned things around and any modest effort left in place would have secured that country's future. The Dem's sacrificed all that hard work for political gain and this is all on their heads. This is pure evil.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by Diogenes »

hanelyp wrote:
Diogenes wrote:[Iraq was fairly peaceful after the war, up until the time Paul Bremer announced that they were disbanding the existing Iraqi Army (Basically firing everyone in it) and further announcing that No member of the Bathe party would be permitted to work in the new government.
Imprison/punish the serious villains, but otherwise let former government officials keep their position so long as they play by our rules. I'm sure a lot of Bathe party members and Iraqi army personnel were there because it was politically advantageous, not out of any special loyalty to top leadership.


This is exactly right. Give them a reason to get with the program and they would have helped. Give them a reason to hate us and they will work very hard to turn our presence into h3ll for us.

This is exactly the process we followed with Nazi Germany, and it works because it takes human nature into account. The process we followed in Iraq simply painted the Sunnis into a corner and of course they fought as would any cornered rat.



Oh, and Skipjack, I'm not even going to bother reading your crap. I've long ago concluded it is a waste of time to argue with you. Occasionally I make the mistake of attempting it. I keep expecting you to grow up but I shouldn't bother holding my breath.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by Diogenes »

ISIS Militants Have Captured And Used At Least One American Blackhawk Helicopter


Image


Today, the Islamist States of Iraq and Syria (“ISIS”) are confirming with the above image that they have indeed, seized control and have begun to operate at least one of these aircraft.

http://weaselzippers.us/189817-isis-mil ... elicopter/
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

ladajo
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by ladajo »

I wonder if they are doing the maintenance.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by paperburn1 »

OK just my two cents worth but this is what is going to happen. we are going to play buddy buddy with Iran and give them support in return for them dropping their nuclear program. they will agree and send in troops(volunteers) to help.
They will control the lower third to half of Iraq and let the Kurd expand out to their old levels. we (US,Iran,Iraq) stomp the bad guys and now everyone is suppose to make nice nice and go home. but Iran thinks these oil fields make a great vacation spot and do not want to leave. we say no arms but they seem to have plenty left over from Syria :oops: They tell the Kurd they can keep what they kill and that makes them happy. They set up housekeeping and start their nuclear "power" program back up. Tell the USA they got this and to back out now. If they want any oil they better let Shiite take care of Shiites. We bow up and they start helping Afghan rebels. The whole near east turns into one big turd bowl.
sit back wait and see.
I forgot to include the genocide of the remaining sunni
Last edited by paperburn1 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Skipjack
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by Skipjack »

GIThruster wrote: We had turned things around and any modest effort left in place would have secured that country's future. The Dem's sacrificed all that hard work for political gain and this is all on their heads. This is pure evil.
This is not how the rest of the population saw it. The majority was for an end to the war (and the insane spending on it) and to the deaths of US troops. The job of politicians is to fulfill the will of the people, not the will of those that gain from such an arrangement.

choff
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Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Iraq is falling

Post by choff »

Iraq could become a quagmire for Iran, as for maintenance on those helicopters, ISIS can always go to the people who organized, trained and provisioned them in the first place.
CHoff

hanelyp
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by hanelyp »

ISIS Militants Have Captured And Used At Least One American Blackhawk Helicopter
ladajo wrote:I wonder if they are doing the maintenance.
I doubt it, and hope not. I expect a level of upkeep similar to the Iranian oil fields, which I hear are falling apart from neglect under use. How long can these aircraft keep flying without preventive attention?
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

paperburn1
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by paperburn1 »

30 to 60 flight hours
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

djolds1
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:03 am

Re: Iraq is falling

Post by djolds1 »

MSimon wrote:Question: How long did it take to turn South Korea into a democracy? For decades it looked like an impossible task.

Same for Taiwan.

Changing a culture takes time.
Took the Romans a century or two to civilize the Gauls.

I don't think we leave the Ummah after this coming round.
paperburn1 wrote:OK just my two cents worth but this is what is going to happen. we are going to play buddy buddy with Iran and give them support in return for them dropping their nuclear program. they will agree and send in troops(volunteers) to help.
Close, but not quite.

We will buddy-buddy with Iran, and we will NOT ask Iran to drop its nuclear program.

After Saddam's Iraq, Libya, and most recently Ukraine, no state with a nuclear program will ever end one again. Nonproliferation is dead.

Hell, the Saudis funded the recent Pakistani expansion of their nuclear production facilities. Good odds the first Saudi nukes have already been delivered to Riyadh.
paperburn1 wrote:They will control the lower third to half of Iraq and let the Kurd expand out to their old levels. we (US,Iran,Iraq) stomp the bad guys and now everyone is suppose to make nice nice and go home. but Iran thinks these oil fields make a great vacation spot and do not want to leave. we say no arms but they seem to have plenty left over from Syria :oops: They tell the Kurd they can keep what they kill and that makes them happy. They set up housekeeping and start their nuclear "power" program back up. Tell the USA they got this and to back out now. If they want any oil they better let Shiite take care of Shiites. We bow up and they start helping Afghan rebels. The whole near east turns into one big turd bowl.
sit back wait and see.
I forgot to include the genocide of the remaining sunni
You've missed a few things.

1) The Kurds have cut a deal with the Turks, so a sovereign Kurdistan is possible. Certainly the oil in the north of Iraq will now be flowing to the sea via Turkey;

2) The Saudis may pay the Egyptian Army to come in;

3) The Saudi Kingdom may collapse - the Salafi terrorists have been how the Saudis have exported their hotheads for decades, and that mistake is now marching south in the general direction of the Arabian peninsula;

4) If the Shiia go too far in the direction of a Sunni genocide, the Sunni states in the area that are afraid of the Salafi Jihadis they've created need to decide which side to support;

5) The collapse of Libya and Egypt has put Egyptian finances on the brink. Egypt is a highly urbanized state of 80 million people, and it can't feed itself. What happens when the subsidized bread stops? The Egyptians can try a sea evac toward Greece or an overland through Israel. To call that Chaos is an understatement;

6) Russia is making its play for restored empire. The most recent events look like they're straight out of the "Germany in Poland in 1939" playbook. What happens when the Russians move on to seize the Baltics - NATO members;

7) China is rapidly ramping up the tensions with its neighbors, Japan is stepping up as regional front man with the Obama retreat, Japan can go nuclear in a week if it wants to, and I'd bet my soul the Taiwanese military has a few fission pits in quiet storage somewhere that can be built into weapons on a week's notice;

In sum, three critical global regions are girded for conflict, and the planet is on the edge of a fourth 30 year's war - probably one in two acts, like the last one that played out between 100 and 70 years ago.
Skipjack wrote:
GIThruster wrote:We had turned things around and any modest effort left in place would have secured that country's future. The Dem's sacrificed all that hard work for political gain and this is all on their heads. This is pure evil.
This is not how the rest of the population saw it. The majority was for an end to the war (and the insane spending on it) and to the deaths of US troops. The job of politicians is to fulfill the will of the people, not the will of those that gain from such an arrangement.
No.

The job of politicians is to stay in power. After that, the job of politicians is to guarantee the survival of the polities they rule, so that they retain something to stay in power over.

I doubt the British people wanted war in 1937. Not that they had a choice in the matter. War has an interest in us these days... its fascinations will be indulged.

As to blame for Iraq... it is debatable. As much blame can be placed on the surge itself as on the pullout, but the pullout is later on the timeline, and so will probably take the lion's share of the blame.
Vae Victis

paperburn1
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by paperburn1 »

Iran nuke deal
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... ramme-deal
Iran is serious in seeking a comprehensive nuclear deal with world powers despite lingering differences, President Hassan Rouhani said on Saturday, insisting negotiations could succeed before a July 20 deadline expires.

Do you think there will be a deal between the turks and kurds that will last? The PKK is and will be a pain in the ass for them. the got guns and now you suggest cash flow will make that region stable

I think Egypt will just stay home as they have to many problems to worry about.

But one thing we both agree, no mater how it plays out it will not be good.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

djolds1
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:03 am

Re: Iraq is falling

Post by djolds1 »

paperburn1 wrote:Iran nuke deal
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... ramme-deal
Iran is serious in seeking a comprehensive nuclear deal with world powers despite lingering differences, President Hassan Rouhani said on Saturday, insisting negotiations could succeed before a July 20 deadline expires.
Purest bullshit.

Iran will go nuclear. The US, Europe and Israel have all implicitly acquiesced to it.
paperburn1 wrote:Do you think there will be a deal between the turks and kurds that will last? The PKK is and will be a pain in the ass for them. the got guns and now you suggest cash flow will make that region stable
The Kurdish cash flow depends on a friendly Turkey to route the oil. And the Kurds want their own state more than tweaking the Turks - a state the Turks have become more comfortable with of late. Yes, I think the deal holds long-term.
paperburn1 wrote:I think Egypt will just stay home as they have to many problems to worry about.
No fresh cash and Egypt starves. The question is when, not if. Mercenary armies are an old way to kill off excess population and send money home; win-win for the Egyptians. If not, that volkswanderung hangs awaiting.
paperburn1 wrote:But one thing we both agree, no mater how it plays out it will not be good.
Yup.
Vae Victis

paperburn1
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by paperburn1 »

One thing I have forgotten to comment on but is a huge factor. These ISIL guy are a trained fighting force. They appear to already be battle harden.

WHERE DID THEY COME FROM and WHO TRAINED THEM???
This is the 400 pound gorilla in the room.
We did not know they were being trained?
We do not know who financed them?
We do not know whom they are answering to?

curiousness and more curiousness ..Curious George
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

djolds1
Posts: 1296
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:03 am

Re: Iraq is falling

Post by djolds1 »

paperburn1 wrote:One thing I have forgotten to comment on but is a huge factor. These ISIL guy are a trained fighting force. They appear to already be battle harden.

WHERE DID THEY COME FROM and WHO TRAINED THEM???
This is the 400 pound gorilla in the room.
We did not know they were being trained?
We do not know who financed them?
We do not know whom they are answering to?

curiousness and more curiousness ..Curious George
?????

SYRIA trained them. Several years of easy killing to attract every young true believer Sunni hothead in the region, plus some alumni from Afghanistan as cadre.

ISIS/ISIL are a post-alQ faction, a franchise that schismed with the main movement.

The US/EU have very obviously not given a darn about overt intervention in Syria for several years. Hell, there are decent odds that these are the same people the US Department of State was smuggling arms to in Syria to fight Assad. Not for no reason have the talking heads been saying "our allies in Syria against Assad are al-Queda." Well, meet al Queda's slightly more radical sibling, ISIS.
Vae Victis

MSimon
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Re: Iraq is falling

Post by MSimon »

ladajo wrote:I wonder if they are doing the maintenance.
Don't put any oil in 'til the red light goes on. Saves on maintenance effort.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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