How to defeat ISIL

[mvanwink5]

So if you're going to say its only the extremists, and not part of Islam, you have to define "extreme" as 1/3 of the demographic, "French Youth".

That is a sobering point. I am interested to hear it explained by the "Islam is a religion of peace" crowd. No doubt Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews are all to blame.

[tomclarke]

27% French youth support ISIL: http://www.vox.com/2014/8/26/6067123/isis-poll

So if you're going to say its only the extremists, and not part of Islam, you have to define "extreme" as 1/3 of the demographic, "French Youth".

French Muslims amount to roughly 7% of the population, so this is non-Muslims having this view. It is most regrettable their are so many idiots in France, and that country scores so much higher than others in Europe I expect there is something else going on that we don't understand.

I have no problem in reiterating that only those with extreme political views, or fundamentalist religious ones, or so idiotic they have no coherent views at all, could support ISIS. One caveat - the Sunnis in Iraq who supported - or half-supported - ISIS might do this for non-extreme political reasons, due to a long standing quarrel with the Shia dominated government. If so I bet they are now regretting it.

[williatw]

27% French youth support ISIL: http://www.vox.com/2014/8/26/6067123/isis-poll

So if you're going to say its only the extremists, and not part of Islam, you have to define "extreme" as 1/3 of the demographic, "French Youth".

French Muslims amount to roughly 7% of the population, so this is non-Muslims having this view. It is most regrettable their are so many idiots in France, and that country scores so much higher than others in Europe I expect there is something else going on that we don't understand.

It's not rocket science, very simple to understand tomclarke.... it is an example of where the "conquered" or in this case slowly being conquered start to identify with their soon to be masters...."we're just getting what we deserve for our past abuses", they probably say to themselves. As for why the French in particular?:

Much lower in other European Countries...so there may be another factor at work (other than the higher percentage of Muslims in France):

The CESM factor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese-eat ... er_monkeys

[Betruger]

That figure is hard to believe.

[williatw]

That figure is hard to believe.

I assume you mean this:

French Muslims amount to roughly 7% of the population,

But even if correct...7% of the total French population; probably a much higher percentage of the young population. Most of the Muslim immigrants were young when they came to France, much younger on average than the French indigenous population. After all that's why they were brought in, to support the collapsing demographic; young tax paying workers to pay for the generous retirement benefits of an older population that didn't produce enough young on their own.

[ladajo]

Primary source material?

[tomclarke]

That figure is hard to believe.

I assume you mean this:

French Muslims amount to roughly 7% of the population,

But even if correct...7% of the total French population; probably a much higher percentage of the young population. Most of the Muslim immigrants were young when they came to France, much younger on average than the French indigenous population. After all that's why they were brought in, to support the collapsing demographic; young tax paying workers to pay for the generous retirement benefits of an older population that didn't produce enough young on their own.

Yes, I did consider that. I could not find data for Muslim population in France broken down by age. BUT the original data in the study above was broken down by age, and very high at older ages:
20% for 35-44
22% for 25-34
27% for 18-24.

The fact that it is so higher in France than other countries means this study can't be trusted anyway. I don't think the cheese-monkey effect is plausible as a reason for the disparity.

Looking more closely, the same link gives the number of people against ISIS as 62% France, 64% UK, and 85% in Gaza! So it does not seem that support for ISIS is universal amongst Muslims. Which makes the French results even more surprising.

[mvanwink5]

TC,
You have to be kidding, those are huge percentages for head lopping execution ISIL support, and that is the point.

[GIThruster]

I think the statistics, given they're true, make the point pretty obvious. Virtually all of the Muslim population in France is in support of ISIS, as well as a significant portion of their youth whom are not Muslim, but who obviously have Muslim sympathies. This is not surprising.

While people love to judge the story of God instructing the Jews to eliminate the indigenous population when they returned from their Egyptian captivity to Palestine, these self-righteous kinds of judgements fly in the face of the facts. The fact is, bad company corrupts good morals. In just the same way that constant contact with immoral Islamo-fascists generates sympathy for fascism, murder and strife; constant contact with the ancient pagans in the holy land generated sympathy in the ancient Jews for the worshippers of Moleck, and Baal, and Dagon and Ashteroth. When you're committed to peace with your neighbors at all costs, and your neighbors routinely heat up their bronze statue of Moleck and toss their infants up into its outstretched arms to sear to death publicly, this has consequences. When you make friends with the worshipper of Baal, whom whip themselves into a sado-masichistic frenzy and slash each other and themselves open with knives at part of their worship of evil, this has consequences. And when you make friends with islamo-fascists who have moved into your community, and they're telling you how you really ought to hate all Jews and want to murder them, and hate the Christians and Kurds and anyone else who refuses to bow to your god, that sympathy grows into sickness across a broader population.

It is really only the detached, PC, self-righteous idiots who don't get this. When you make peace with evil, and sympathize with evil, and invite it to dinner, you cannot then afterward consider yourself clean enough to think soberly about evil. This is what has happened in France and this is why I'm saying, it is NOT only some small subset of Islam that is this way. This is intrinsic to all Islam. The only portion of the people who practice Islam who don't suffer these radical breaks with their merciless tradition of conquering the planet by the sword, are those who are unusually progressive, and these are in fact good people. They are not however the norm.

I have Muslim friends. I work closely with one. I don't hate Muslims. But believe you me, if he sympathized with ISIS, we would no longer be friends because I don't make friends with that kind of evil.

And seriously, haven't we all sheen this kind of thing again and again? It's chic in Europe to make friends with Communists and Socialists, and forget the Khmer Rouge. We don't want to unnecessarily offend anyone in Africa, but we need to remember what Idi Amin Dada did in Uganda. You can't make friends with that! Our "go along to get along" PC attitudes instruct us toward tolerance which is good, but not when this extends to the very heart of darkness that murders. We know better than to tolerate Nazis. Why then do we turn a blind eye toward Islamo-fascism and pretend we have no right to judge just because it's hiding behind the face of religion?

Some religions deserve to be wiped from the face of the Earth and have been. To the best of my knowledge, there are no more worshippers of Moleck, or Dagon, or Ashteroth or Baal. Satan has a very small following that should be taken pretty seriously. If you knew the largest church in Portland, Oregon is a Satanic church (or was in the '80's when I lived there--don't know about today) and you knew what kinds of things these people believe and do, you would take them seriously. If you'd ever met someone who worships Abaddon, you'd take EVERY one of them seriously.

So why is it we can't take Islam seriously. They're been murdering people all across the planet from Persia, to Arabia, to Southeast Asia for the entire history of the religion. Why can't we call evil, "EVIL"?

[tomclarke]

TC,
You have to be kidding, those are huge percentages for head lopping execution ISIL support, and that is the point.

agree they are huge percentages - and surprising. But I'm not sure what your point is? Other than that people are idiots, and France would appear 3 X more idiotic than neighbouring European countries.

[tomclarke]

I think the statistics, given they're true, make the point pretty obvious. Virtually all of the Muslim population in France is in support of ISIS, as well as a significant portion of their youth whom are not Muslim, but who obviously have Muslim sympathies. This is not surprising.

Well, let's see. We can agree that ISIS is evil. Maybe not as much as Boku Haram, maybe more - such fine distinctions don't much matter. I'm also not willing without further evidence to say that ISIS is more evil than say the Burmese military government - whom we now it seems support. Admittedly they have maybe turned over a new leaf. Boku Haram, because it kidnaps and enslaves or kills young female children en masse, must sure take the biscuit in the evil stakes. ISIS's level of nastiness given a stable state is not yet known, though I expect it will be pretty bad. its loathsome behaviour while taking territory must be set against the fact that many other countries behave in a very bad ways during existential wars.

Where we can't agree is your automatic identification of ISI with Muslim. Undoubtedly ISIS thinks it is Muslim. But European Muslim leaders don't think it is Muslim.

Muslim leaders in Britain have condemned the extremist group Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis), expressing their "grave concern" at continued violence in its name.

Representatives from both the Sunni and Shia groups in the UK met at the Palace of Westminster and relayed their message that the militant group does not represent the majority of Muslims.

Maulana Shahid Raza, of Leicester Central Mosque told Sky News: "ISIS does not represent the main Sunni Muslims' ideology.

"They are involved in acts of terror and violence, they are involved in destructing and demolishing the Muslim shrines...We condemn it."

from http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 99273.html
This was the first search result returned from "UK Muslim Leaders ISIS".

There are no doubt many Muslim youth who follow nicely packaged extremist propaganda. But also many who do not. The figures from France make it clear that at least 50% or so of the support for ISIS in France comes from non-Muslims. They do not say what percentage of Muslims support ISIS. In fact there is indirect evidence (the Gaza disapproval rate of 85%) that Muslims are likely not to support ISIS. This is maybe counterintuitive, but maybe not given that ISIS behaves in a way no truly religious person would support.

[GIThruster]

http://allenbwest.com/2014/08/isis-lapt ... ass-death/

"The ISIS laptop contains a 19-page document in Arabic on how to develop biological weapons and how to weaponize the bubonic plague from infected animals. “The advantage of biological weapons is that they do not cost a lot of money, while the human casualties can be huge,” the document states."

[tomclarke]

http://allenbwest.com/2014/08/isis-lapt ... ass-death/

"The ISIS laptop contains a 19-page document in Arabic on how to develop biological weapons and how to weaponize the bubonic plague from infected animals. “The advantage of biological weapons is that they do not cost a lot of money, while the human casualties can be huge,” the document states."

Well that seems pretty evil. It also makes ISIS less worrying. If they support terrorism so openly no county will support them and there will be (when Obama gets his act together) a nice consensus for military action against them.

If they want a lasting Islamic State they need to change their policies pretty quickly.

[GIThruster]

Well that seems pretty evil. It also makes ISIS less worrying. If they support terrorism so openly no county will support them. . .

Let's hope this is true, but let's also remember that Palestine supports HAMAS, who is every bit as dedicated to terrorism as ISIS. I saw an interview last week of a Palestinian woman who's child had just been saved from a terrible fate by a Jewish doctor, so the crew went and interviewed her hoping to catch some glimpse of gratitude. Instead she explained she hopes and expects one day every last Jew will be killed and Jerusalem will belong to the Palestinians. In fact she said it is 'heresy" to believe or say otherwise. She used the term "heresy" twice. This belief that the Jews have to be exterminated is part of Islam, part of the religion from its very core. Modern progressive Muslims may downplay this but its right in the Koran.

So far as I know, Islam is the only religion in the world that teaches at its core, that the whole world needs to believe what's in the book, and anyone who does not, deserves to be robbed, raped and murdered, until the whole world is under this twisted god's thumb and in "submission".

[mvanwink5]

ISIL is a Prog Frankenstein, born from Libya - Syria weapons for Islamic rebels. One more war for Nobel Peace Prize recipient Obama. Oh, yeah, no doubt you will also support a war against Russia. "Progs for Peace" can there possibly be a more perfect oxymoron?

I like the Prog slogan, "Making the world safe for democracy."