Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

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williatw
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby williatw » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:38 am

williatw wrote:So it looks like that unless your talking about an insanely powerful nuke 294 miles up you are likely right in your points about EMP.


Gee...maybe I should walk back what I just said?!:


Starfish Prime

Starfish Prime was a July 9, 1962 high-altitude nuclear test conducted by the United States, a joint effort of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and the Defense Atomic Support Agency. It was the largest nuclear test conducted in outer space and one of five conducted by the US in space.



On July 9, 1962, at 09:00:09 Coordinated Universal Time (July 8, Honolulu time, at nine seconds after 11 p.m.), the Starfish Prime test was detonated at an altitude of 400 kilometres (250 mi). The coordinates of the detonation were

16°28′N 169°38′WCoordinates: 16°28′N 169°38′W.[1] The actual weapon yield came very close to the design yield, which various sources have set at different values in the range of 1.4 to 1.45 megatons (6.0 PJ). The nuclear warhead detonated 13 minutes and 41 seconds after liftoff of the Thor missile from Johnston Island.[5]

Starfish Prime caused an electromagnetic pulse (EMP), which was far larger than expected, so much larger that it drove much of the instrumentation off scale, causing great difficulty in getting accurate measurements. The Starfish Prime electromagnetic pulse also made those effects known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about 1,445 kilometres (898 mi) away from the detonation point, knocking out about 300 streetlights,[6] setting off numerous burglar alarms and damaging a telephone company microwave link. The EMP damage to the microwave link shut down telephone calls from Kauai to the other Hawaiian islands





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby ladajo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:59 am

Altitude impacts line of sight for E1 effects, and yes inverse square has some play. Without atmosphere, E2 and E3 effects become minimal. One of the other factors for altitude and latitude is the earth's magnetic field. Higher latitude means weaker field, and more E1 effects. The reason the peak field area is offset from point of burst is due to blast ionization immediately below weapon in atmosphere and the influence of the magnetic field. Like I said, it is complicated, for many reasons.
Any idiot thinking they can take out the US with one or a couple of EMP bursts is really asking to be anihilated by folks who really know what they are doing. And it would not be EMP counter-strikes.
JMHO.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby Tom Ligon » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:33 am

ladajo wrote:Any idiot thinking they can take out the US with one or a couple of EMP bursts is really asking to be anihilated by folks who really know what they are doing. And it would not be EMP counter-strikes.
JMHO.


Maybe the way I should have stated it is that an EMP attack by NK on the US is absolutely not survivable. For North Korea.

Regardless of the damage to US infrastructure (which might knock some areas back into the 19th century), most of our military capacity, including the nearby nuclear strike capability they ought to know is just off their coast, would survive intact. Paperburn's graphic would knock the wheat belt back into the 19th century. Not sure they could tell ... they might even enjoy it!

My fear is that the smart phones would survive.

williatw
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby williatw » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:49 am

Tom Ligon wrote:Regardless of the damage to US infrastructure (which might knock some areas back into the 19th century), most of our military capacity, including the nearby nuclear strike capability they ought to know is just off their coast, would survive intact.


I am afraid Tom that is not particularly reassuring...deterrence only works if your enemy is sane/rational. Not sure that applies to the current head of NK. Hard to believe that NK can't duplicate a feat (the posted EMP test) that we managed to accomplish back in 1962; given that they have nukes and have launched satellites. NK getting "wiped out" won't help those American plunged back into the "19th century". Millions could still die if not anywhere near "90%".

paperburn1
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby paperburn1 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:42 am

[quote="williatw] I am afraid Tom that is not particularly reassuring...deterrence only works if your enemy is sane/rational. Not sure that applies to the current head of NK. Hard to believe that NK can't duplicate a feat (the posted EMP test) that we managed to accomplish back in 1962; given that they have nukes and have launched satellites. NK getting "wiped out" won't help those American plunged back into the "19th century". Millions could still die if not anywhere near "90%".[/quote]
It is true the LFT could effect a small area relatively speaking (Seattle basin, LA basin) direct effects would not be what killed off most of the people. It would be the lack of preparedness that would cause most of the destruction with the people themselves being their own worst enemy.
most large city's can not maintain themselves beyond a few days to a week at most. And the average occupant of the same cities will not invest the required 100 or so dollars that would give them the long term survivability. That is where the real problem lies . I live in NC on the coast and when I first got here it was common knowledge you needed a hurricane / storm kit. Almost everyone had one and nowadays with all the new population growth and people moving in almost 75 percent do not even have the basics for a 3 day stay. I guess stupid is as stupid does. But I guarantee after the next big blow a lot more will have them. Happened after Floyd and will happen again. Even in the news you see what happened after Katrina and now Harvey and people still have not learned. :o Ok rant is over. Note: I could live without a cell phone but not without my kindle app.

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I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby ladajo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:46 pm

The Starfish test is a good example of misunderstanding carried forward. For example, the comment about instruments being maxed. This occurred because they did not know to monitor for the effects. Another point is the HPL grid, and claimed associated impacts. Key word, claimed. This is still debated in some circles. The other key point is that Starfish was a Megaton class weapon. It was not a high school science project. DPRK more than likely has been copying someone else's homework, and there is a lot more homework to go in order to get to Megaton yields. And one last point, the engineering of a weapon for EMP is markedly different from the engineering of a weapon for other (more recognized) effects, such as blast or radiation. It is like saying gasoline is a good explosive. a.) Define "good". b.) Define "explosive". c.) Define intended use...

Bottom line, there is a lot of hype right now in the DPRK arena, with lots of folks jockeying for positions based on personal or internal agendas. It is important to do two things: Don't trust Wikipedia, and don't trust talking heads.

I will add one last thought; in the history of american warfare, one of the things we do REALLY well, is not let on to the other guy what we actually can/could and will do. And to that end, we are VERY selective about when and how we use a can/could, if it is a game changer.
Case in point: Nuclear strikes on Japan. Another case in point: Use of Radar Proximity fuses during WWII. And so on, and so forth. When I was in SOF, the saying was (and still is), "the best mission is the one they never know you did". So take that LFT!
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Betruger
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby Betruger » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:53 pm

ladajo wrote:a couple of slick PPT slides and 90 seconds of commentary.

If that.

ladajo wrote:"the best mission is the one they never know you did"

Which plays so well to conspiracists and crackpots. 8) SNAKES!! :x
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby Tom Ligon » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:28 pm

ladajo wrote: Another case in point: Use of Radar Proximity fuses during WWII. And so on, and so forth.


Radar proximity fuses were a nasty surprise. Utilized in time-on-target massed fires, they permitted air bursts to be precisely exploded over troop concentrations without warning. Introduction of these was in December, 1944, just in time to counter the Battle of the Bulge. This is from the unit history of the 967th Field Artillery Battalion, my dad's unit. He recalled that receiving these new fuses was very cloak-and-dagger.

12 December 44 Bn. CO attended a demonstration, today, of time fire with new methods.

28 December 44 Corps reported they expected the Germans to attack through DUREN during the early morning hours. The Bn made immediate plans to shift its sector to include all of DUREN. Prepared fires were received to fire beginning at 0527 and continuing until 0730. We fired 2 Bn volleys of the new "Fire cracker" (Posit) shell and fuse. Bn fired on 2 assembly areas, 2 missions on vehicle movements, and 9 prepared fires to break up the expected German attack in the vicinity of DUREN. Bn expended 240 rounds of ammunition in the 24 hour period.

29 December 44 The expected German attack did not materialize.

The first two volleys from their 12 guns, from their location midway between Aachen and Duren (already in Germany!) did most of the damage, as troops were caught without cover. Not included in this history was the German casualties, which I believe were in the 2000 range.

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby ladajo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:39 pm

There are great accounts collected from German Infantry at the Bulge discussing the effects of the "New" US artillery.
I paraphrase one (been a while since I looked at this reporting), "I have been through enough artillery fire to know that I don't know what you did, but I know you did something. I have never experienced fire like that during the war. It destroyed us."

The effectiveness of the proximity fuse secret can be found in the naval air war in the pacific, as well as the air war in europe (albeit later, as the Pacific guys did not want to share in fear of the secret getting out). The V-1s targeting England were the first target set the fuses were used against. The Germans fired about 10,500 V-1s against the UK, of which 2,419 went off in the "Central Defense Region". While not an especially maneuvering target, it was pretty fast for sustained airspeed at 400 mph or so. The British defenses detected almost 90% of the inbounds, and were able to destroy almost 4,000 of them (better than half). Of those downed, 1,846 are credited to fighters (just under half). Anti-air got credit for 1,878, again, almost half. Between ground based radar gun directors, and proximity fuses, once implemented saw anti-air kill rates of up to 80% of their targets. This was at what came to be less than 80 rounds total expended per kill.
The first fuse production run was 500 delivered in September of 1942 for the navy's use in 5 inch rounds. The first combat kill was 5 January, 1943 by the USS Helena (I believe it was 6 rounds expended). Later in the war, a task group downed 91 of 130 attackers using the fuses.
5 inch guns expended on average 1,000 rounds per kill with conventional fuzes, and 200 rounds with proximity fuses during the period of October '44 until March '45 for kamikaze attacks. For non-kamikaze attacks it was 1,000 conventional to 550 proximity. So roughly half the rounds required for manned low doppler aircraft, and 1/5 the rounds for high doppler targets with an average of about 30% overall.

Arguably one of the core key secrets of the war.

Interesting link on the topic: http://www.smecc.org/radio_proximity_fuzes.htm

Another great reference is the Sloan Technology Series book, Buderi's "The invention that changed the world". I have used it a number of times.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Diogenes
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby Diogenes » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:20 pm

And people wondered why "Pizzagate" didn't sound all that far fetched.



Legendary Washington socialite Sally Quinn believes she killed three people with magic.


Some friends have voiced reservations that Quinn is now showing all her cards, so to speak. “Don’t play up the voodoo too much,” one implored. But Sally does nothing by halves. She reveals that, in her less mellow days, she put hexes on three people who promptly wound up having their lives ruined, or ended.




And from Hillary's new book.

It was a dumb mistake. But an even dumber “scandal.” It was like quicksand: the more you struggle, the deeper you sink. At times, I thought I must be going crazy. Other times, I was sure it was the world that had gone nuts. Sometimes I snapped at my staff. I was tempted to make voodoo dolls of certain members of the press and Congress and stick them full of pins. Mostly, I was furious at myself.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

paperburn1
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby paperburn1 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:29 am

So she just bragged about how she committed murder? :D :D :D :D :D :D
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

TDPerk
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby TDPerk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:10 pm

Diogenes wrote:And people wondered why "Pizzagate" didn't sound all that far fetched.


To the rational it is very far fetched, no possibility of it even being worth reporting -- other than by way moving to have it's believers committed as being violently insane. Which at least one is.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2016/1213 ... ison-Welch
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

TDPerk
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby TDPerk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:13 pm

TDPerk wrote:
Diogenes wrote:And people wondered why "Pizzagate" didn't sound all that far fetched.


To the rational it is very far fetched, no possibility of it even being worth reporting -- other than by way moving to have it's believers committed as being violently insane. Which at least one is.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2016/1213 ... ison-Welch


Are there pedophiles in high places? Yes there are. Is anything about Pizzagate evidence of them? No, nothing about it is.

I have seen more evidence for example at Instapundit, that Trump! is an aficionado of underage sexual exploits than there is any evidence that anything about Pizzagate is real. Trump! is a slime, fraud, thief, and liar.

He only, barely, won against Hillary because Hillary is so bad.
molon labe

montani semper liberi

para fides paternae patria

Diogenes
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby Diogenes » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:53 pm

TDPerk wrote:
Diogenes wrote:And people wondered why "Pizzagate" didn't sound all that far fetched.


To the rational it is very far fetched, no possibility of it even being worth reporting -- other than by way moving to have it's believers committed as being violently insane. Which at least one is.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2016/1213 ... ison-Welch



Perhaps you have read something on the subject which I have not. I've solicited such information from others (such as Tom Ligon) but most people respond by simply saying "everyone knows this" or some such. Nobody bothers to show where someone took the time to debunk the claims by citing evidence showing the claims are groundless.


Back when it was being discussed on various message boards, I looked at it, and while I didn't see any clear proof that it was real, I saw plenty enough to convince me something is very smelly in that direction. There is too much stuff that doesn't fit any sort of reasonable explanation which I have so far heard. But i'm perfectly willing to hear an explanation, if someone has actually put one forth.

I wonder if the people who have dismissed it out of hand have even bothered to look at the circumstantial evidence provoking these allegations?
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Postby Diogenes » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:09 pm

TDPerk wrote:
TDPerk wrote:
Diogenes wrote:And people wondered why "Pizzagate" didn't sound all that far fetched.


To the rational it is very far fetched, no possibility of it even being worth reporting -- other than by way moving to have it's believers committed as being violently insane. Which at least one is.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2016/1213 ... ison-Welch


Are there pedophiles in high places? Yes there are. Is anything about Pizzagate evidence of them? No, nothing about it is.



That's a pretty broad statement trying to prove a negative. The stuff i've seen looks like some sort of evidence that there are strange goings-on that appears to revolve around children. Lots of weird coincidences that don't make much sense.


TDPerk wrote:I have seen more evidence for example at Instapundit, that Trump! is an aficionado of underage sexual exploits than there is any evidence that anything about Pizzagate is real.



Really? I must have missed that. Where did you see this information that Trump was involved in "underaged sexual exploits."



TDPerk wrote: Trump! is a slime, fraud, thief, and liar.



Even if I agreed with you on this (which I don't) I would still say it constitutes a dramatic improvement over Obama. At least Trump isn't a fool.




TDPerk wrote:He only, barely, won against Hillary because Hillary is so bad.




Barely won? He won 304 to 227. Now that it has recently been revealed that the vote in New Hampshire was fraudulent and that Hillary's victory there is the result of 5,000 fraudulent votes cast being cast in that state, we can change the score to 308 to 223, which makes his vote even more substantial.


It wasn't even close, and yes, Hillary was incredibly bad. Worse than Obama, because she had been getting away with her corruption for a lot longer than he had.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —


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