Soviet Shuttle.

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Diogenes
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Soviet Shuttle.

Postby Diogenes » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:26 pm

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

ladajo
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby ladajo » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:35 pm

Pretty good copy. Another demonstrative clue for the lack soviet engineering capability.
We see this today, and in the PRC as well.
Stealing is easier than doing. A core cultural difference.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

krenshala
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby krenshala » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:13 pm

Not disputing your point, but the Soviets did go for some interesting design differences on the Buran compared to the Space Shuttle.

Liquid fueled 1st stage and leaving main engines off the orbiter itself are the main two the come to mind. Both methods have their advantages and drawbacks of course, and I'm really not sure if one is "better" than the other, but definitely interesting differences.

ladajo
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby ladajo » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:58 pm

I believe part of that was a materials technology limitation on their part.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

krenshala
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby krenshala » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:25 pm

If that was the case, it was definitely an example of using a weakness as a strength. ;)

ladajo
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby ladajo » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:13 pm

I see what you did there :)
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby Skipjack » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:02 am

The Buran was mostly a clone of the US designed Space Shuttle. I think it was more of a "we can do it too" thing. But they did have their very own design with the Bor before it was cancelled in favor of the Buran. The Bor design is what later became the HL-20 and now the Dream Chaser. So I would call that a pretty decent design.
The Russians also developed some really good and sophisticated liquid hydrocarbon engines that beat American counterparts of their time in every aspect. The RD 180 was developed for the very Energia launch vehicle that the Buran was riding piggy back on. Heck the US is still buying them from the Russians for the Atlas launch vehicle to this day!
Due to their high thrust, kerolox engines are really good booster engines, which is why SpaceX is using kerolox engines for their own rockets now (improving on Russian kerolox engines quite a bit too). Interestingly SpaceX is developing a full flow staged combustion LOX+CH4 rocket engine. The Russians had both things before the US as well, though not combined in a single engine.
So saying that the Soviets/Russians were/are lacking ingenuity is not entirely fair. They were more held back by their crappy political system than anything else.

JoeP
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby JoeP » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:09 am

That shuttle had a very successful first flight. If the USSR did not collapse, I wonder if the Russians would have had more good results with it.

ladajo
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby ladajo » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:59 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby Skipjack » Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:55 pm


ladajo
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby ladajo » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:10 pm

Yes, you are correct, I confused the two.
I would also point out that US advances in engines stagnated with STS. We pretty much defaulted any progress at that point to the Soviet/Russian efforts. Especially liquid birds.
As you said it is and always has been a move/counter move game. That said, there remains some core areas where the US retains lead, and others steal or mimic to try and keep up. Metallurgy and Electronics come to mind.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby Skipjack » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:41 am


ladajo
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby ladajo » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:16 pm

The US enjoys a significant advantage in Materials Science. A lot remains export controlled, just like electronics.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
Posts: 6051
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby Skipjack » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:35 am


paperburn1
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Re: Soviet Shuttle.

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:51 am

This was back in the 70s I remember going through the white papers on the mig 25 that Victor somebody landed in Japan. They had used a lot of steel and hand welding to make the aircraft because they really didn't have the capabilities to work titanium successfully. Evaluation electronics at first we thought amusing because they had so many teeny tiny vacuum tubes. The later realize because of this and the steel structure of the aircraft the planes were pretty much EMP proof. I wonder how far they have actually advanced in these fields today
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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