Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

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djolds1
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby djolds1 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:24 am

Vae Victis

ladajo
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby ladajo » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:10 pm

The moment of silence is a cultural difference in how it is implemented.
The Turks sign and chant for those who were lost. This has been wildly misreported across the internet.
And to be clear, they were not doing so for the attackers, it was for the attacked.

I also find it humorous that you guys are fixated on this shoot-down. The Russians asked for it, several times, and pushed the Turkish to change their Rules of Engagement. The Russians did not believe that the Turks had changed the ROE after several violations by the Russians, and so the Turks demonstrated that they had.

Putin's answer: "You guys suck, I don't suck!", and he told the operating units in Syria to provide fighter escorts to tactical bombers. I believe he is also going to try and send more surface air defense to Syria as a "threat". It will be interesting to see how he gets it there. Especially considering that the Turks control the Bosphorus... that may mean he sneaks bits and pieces of S-400 in by heavy lift air via Iran/Iraq, or he tries to sneak the shipment through from the Black Sea without telling anyone.

What will he not do: Attack Turkey.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby ladajo » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:34 pm

Here is a good article that helps put Putin/Russia in context:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/arti ... orgetting/

I think there is some truth to the generational gap occurring in understanding. It is also exacerbated by the mind staggering ease with which information can be moved around. Unfortunately, the younger folks are, the less they understand the power and value of information. Especially, how misinformation can shape and control. It is ironic to me that in the age of the most powerful ability ever to share truth, we instead use this power to spread untruth. I think this is resident in the "consumerist" approach to life that is the norm for younger folks. The concept that they don't need to take time to digest something and partake of its value. Instead, to continue the food allegory, they prefer driveby buffets where they selectively binge on things they like, and ignore the rest. And in the act of the binge, don't take time to actually understand what they are eating tastes like, or whether or not it has nutritional value. The speed of information, while extremely supportive of propagandist agendas, is also the dearth of desire to consider and reflect on what one has read or experienced. Instead, it seems to be breeding a desire to skip through the tuplips, and not actually stop and experience them. Thinking is not required, and in fact, it seems more and more folks are stopping thinking for themselves, and becoming deluded with a buffet selection of other's thoughts (who are trying to drive and agenda), and believing they are their own.
Independent thought is being crushed by the sheer volume (both quantity and loudness) of shallow thinkers. This is what makes propaganda work; failure to question its veracity.

This is how Putin prefers to fight. He claims direct confrontation, but when you actually pay attention, he operates from the oblique, and is afraid of direct confrontation. He will bark a lot, make like he will punch you in the face, but then seek to have a 'friend' stab you in the kidney while you are in the bathroom later. He is a classic smart bully.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby Skipjack » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:33 pm

Still leaves the point the that the Russian SU24 was at most for 14 seconds in Turkish airspace and that is assuming that the Turks are not lying. Erdogan is known to be a liar and possibly also involved in various murders. So I would not put it past him. In fact I would not put anything past him.

paperburn1
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:44 pm

I think it is a fair assessment to say that Putin is more flash then actual substance in this particular case. Admittedly Turkey did not follow rules engagement that was assigned by Russia United States NATO and Turkey to prevent such things from happening. I'm willing to bet whoever ordered to shoot down is in hack right now. But as for Putin doing an actual response in a military fashion against Turkey, I do not see that happening. What I do see is happening is that Turkey buys a whole Lotta gas from Russia and right about midwinter I could see a price hike or a pipeline problem that cuts them off for a short time. I mean even Putin won't kill his primary revenue source from Turkey.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

choff
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby choff » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:56 pm

This is how Putin prefers to fight. He claims direct confrontation, but when you actually pay attention, he operates from the oblique, and is afraid of direct confrontation.

He's oblique and afraid of direct confrontation until he isn't. I wouldn't want to keep predicting future behavior based on the past, unless you claim psychic abilities
CHoff

Diogenes
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby Diogenes » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:36 pm

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

djolds1
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby djolds1 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:11 pm

Vae Victis

MSimon
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby MSimon » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:14 pm


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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby MSimon » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:36 pm


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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby MSimon » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:00 pm


ladajo
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby ladajo » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:08 pm

Erdogan and Putin are both men of excessive pride. They are current in a public Pose-off. Out of the two, Erdogan is more rash. This public rashness has yet to be suicidal.

Yes he and his son are really corrupt, everone knows this. He and Putin are birds of a feather in this regard, with the exception that Putin has no legacy upon which to base his meglomania. The is no prodgal son for Putin. This makes him very unpredictable and dangerous in my opinion. He only cares about himself. That said, he is not going to start a miltary war with Turkey. It might make him look bad, and he knows it, given the high level of risk of taking on the Turkish military. They are not kidding, and area well equipped and trained.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby Skipjack » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:07 pm


ladajo
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby ladajo » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:19 pm

Expected move on Putin's part. Now watch as the "seperatists" in the area suddenly become armed for air defense, and knock down some Russian aircraft.

The gap Putin has been taking advantage of is this lack of air defense. That is about to change I think. If nt the Turks, then the Arabs will source.

The russians have a weakness here, given lack of counters and needs to fly low and close for dumb bombing.

I also expect some more attacks on Russian basing.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: Erdogan is going to get us all killed!

Postby paperburn1 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:44 pm

I can see a "mercenary" pilot take a run at the soviet navel base. That is why they are moving all those launchers around the base.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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