Question about Fukushima in 2016

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:45 pm

"Critical" in the bad sense is a construct of Hollywood and the mass media. In the real world there is no such bad thing to it.
Even super-critical is not a bad thing in the real world. Our ability to manage reactivity and reactivity addition rates by using slow fuel and delayed (0n1)s as the primary function is what makes nuclear power a reality. It is by design, and again, why a power plant can't be a bomb.

The Soviets were never been big on safety, and this was/is(as the Russians still us Soviet based designs) especially true for nuclear engineering. Graphite moderated steam generating cores are accidents waiting to happen. In addition to slagging itself, a significant amount of fuel material became flaming projectiles that littered what was left of the building (note it was not a containment in any sense), and the surrounding grounds when the core blew. It is beyond me why anyone still operates graphite moderated, but there are still a few. They are just not safe.

Now, at the bottom of the physics of a slow core, there is a limit. This is where you produce enough primary fuel (ie not fission product) reactions that prompt (0n1)s take over the reaction, and drive the reactivity addition rate. Given the speed of production/reaction with a high enough density of prompt (0n1)s, then rate of power increase becomes uncontrollable. This is until it hits the material/mass/geometry limits of the core, and results in slag; at which point the now 'corium' mass enters a new operating regime, again self-managed for the most part. Prompt critical is really what the idiots are alluding to when they table the 'evil critical reactor' or fuel mass. Again, this is inherently how bombs work, they are fast fuel constructs with high density mass and geometry.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

JoeP
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:10 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby JoeP » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:36 pm

So what is the likely answer for Fukushima?

If, as Chernobyl, some kind of long term containment is built, these things need regular maintenance. For thousands of years. I just do not see our current civilizations as able to maintain that kind of commitment.

It isn't even assured over a few decades.

At least the Japanese are good at robot design. Maybe an eventual cleanup is possible.

choff
Posts: 2432
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:02 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby choff » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:56 pm

The last I heard they don't know where the reactor core is, and the robots can't survive the radiation long enough to find it.
CHoff

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby KitemanSA » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:40 pm


KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby KitemanSA » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:56 pm


KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby KitemanSA » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:01 pm


KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby KitemanSA » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:10 pm


KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby KitemanSA » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:43 pm

Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg (133.62 KiB) Viewed 7171 times

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby KitemanSA » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:47 pm


ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:07 am

Fair enough, although in my mind the discussion centered on conventional plants. OBTW, there are no operating light water fast fission plants. Your "typically" is an always. Reactivity is controlled by designed dependence on delayed (0n1)s. You can't control a fast (0n1) reaction. It doubles power in millisecond cycles.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:41 pm

Last edited by ladajo on Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby ladajo » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:57 pm

By the way, not understanding this is what caused the Chernobyl excursion. The dummies forgot about how operating history impacts Xenon poisoning and set themselves up for a positive reactivity addition accident, that then lead to a prompt criticality condition, which then lit the graphite on fire and then lead to steam explosion(s) which scattered all sorts of flaming chunks of fun stuff around the landscape. For a grand finale, the remaining corium slag ate its way into the basement creating the permanent "Chernobyl Memorial Park".
It may be that the Japanese end up with some component of the three slagged units becoming the permanent "Fukushima Memorial Park", but that depends on the motivation and determination of the Japanese to get at the slag remnants. They have a much more manageable problem than the Russians given the base plant design differences.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

CharlesKramer
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby CharlesKramer » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:18 pm

================================
CBK
Blog: http://www.provideocoalition.com/ckramer

CharlesKramer
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby CharlesKramer » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:30 pm

================================
CBK
Blog: http://www.provideocoalition.com/ckramer

CharlesKramer
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Question about Fukushima in 2016

Postby CharlesKramer » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:41 pm

================================
CBK
Blog: http://www.provideocoalition.com/ckramer


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 4 guests