WB-100 designs are being evaluated?

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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:09 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote: The first continuous net power machine is going to cost around $40 mn for materials. I don't think cryo copper is going to cut it. At the 2m size (coils) you might as well go SC.

The problem with SC is that you the pretty much HAVE to go professional with all it's attendant engineering costs. Lower tech means a broader volunteer base.


Dude! You are going to have to go pro on this no matter what. If I'm spending $40 mn I'm not entrusting it to some Jr Rocket Scientists. We may not get a second chance. Do it right the first time.

In any case there are quite a few pros on this board. Aerospace engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, etc. etc. etc. There will be no shortage of talent. Let us make sure there is no shortage of funds to pay them.

I have seen more than one project killed because of scrimping on talent. Always get the best talent. It is cheaper.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:47 pm

Open source works. But it needn't be all or nothing.
I too am a pro. I am about to retire. To be involved with something like this, I may well work on a PROMISE of payment (stock options or the like). As you say, there is a lot of talent on this board. I suspect there are more than a few here who would almost pay to be involved. Indeed, I suspect there are a number who HAVE paid via the EMC2FDC.

Things need to be done professionalLY, not necessarily for pay.
Last edited by KitemanSA on Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:53 pm

KitemanSA wrote:Open source works. But it needn't be all or nothing.


Linux is a crock. It may be open source. It may work. People may maintain it. But it has all the inelegance of its foundation.

i.e. Open source is not bad for replication. It sucks when you have to blaze a new path.

Take my Open Source Work on Polywell. It may be useful. There may be good ideas there. But it is little more than rough estimates. For real work I'm going to need some real money.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:01 pm

MSimon wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Open source works. But it needn't be all or nothing.

Open source is not bad for replication. It sucks when you have to blaze a new path.
Take my Open Source Work on Polywell. It may be useful. There may be good ideas there. But it is little more than rough estimates. For real work I'm going to need some real money.

Then let us hope you are as unique as you play you are! :wink:

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:57 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Open source works. But it needn't be all or nothing.

Open source is not bad for replication. It sucks when you have to blaze a new path.
Take my Open Source Work on Polywell. It may be useful. There may be good ideas there. But it is little more than rough estimates. For real work I'm going to need some real money.

Then let us hope you are as unique as you play you are! :wink:


You don't get to be a non-degreed aerospace engineer (hired by the same aerospace company twice - ten years apart) without being able to do one or two useful things.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

krenshala
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Postby krenshala » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:59 pm

MSimon wrote:You don't get to be a non-degreed aerospace engineer (hired by the same aerospace company twice - ten years apart) without being able to do one or two useful things.


Degrees show you know how to get a degree. On the job experience that says you did it right shows you know how to get the work done. :)

imaginatium
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Postby imaginatium » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:37 pm

MSimon wrote:Take my Open Source Work on Polywell. It may be useful. There may be good ideas there. But it is little more than rough estimates. For real work I'm going to need some real money.


How much "real money" are you talking about? It seems to me that the reason that research is so expensive is mostly because of wetware costs (or as you say "engineers get the big bucks"). But, if we get engineers who are motivated enough, to put "service of humanity" above "earning what they are worth", I don't see why $30 an hour would be unreasonable.

MirariNefas
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Postby MirariNefas » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:47 pm

You can screen for extremes of intelligence and skill, or you can screen for extremes of compassion and self/familial sacrifice. Good luck trying to get all things in one person.

imaginatium
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Postby imaginatium » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:58 pm

MirariNefas wrote:You can screen for extremes of intelligence and skill, or you can screen for extremes of compassion and self/familial sacrifice. Good luck trying to get all things in one person.


$30/Hr is hardly self sacrifice. I could live quite comfortably on far less than that.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:09 pm

How much "real money" are you talking about? It seems to me that the reason that research is so expensive is mostly because of wetware costs (or as you say "engineers get the big bucks"). But, if we get engineers who are motivated enough, to put "service of humanity" above "earning what they are worth", I don't see why $30 an hour would be unreasonable.


The average engineering salary in the USA is some where around $90K a year.

And you want to get top people for a lower than average rate? Good luck with that. People have families, mortgages, sick relatives, etc. Bills to pay.

I want my engineers focused on the project: not on how they are going to pay their bills.

Besides: at the level I'm talking about pay is a measure of respect. When I was in the lower pay brackets I did not get the same respect I got at the much higher rates: same quality of engineering.

Don't scrimp on talent. You will be wasting your money.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

imaginatium
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Postby imaginatium » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:56 pm

MSimon wrote:
How much "real money" are you talking about? It seems to me that the reason that research is so expensive is mostly because of wetware costs (or as you say "engineers get the big bucks"). But, if we get engineers who are motivated enough, to put "service of humanity" above "earning what they are worth", I don't see why $30 an hour would be unreasonable.


The average engineering salary in the USA is some where around $90K a year.

And you want to get top people for a lower than average rate? Good luck with that. People have families, mortgages, sick relatives, etc. Bills to pay.

I want my engineers focused on the project: not on how they are going to pay their bills.

Besides: at the level I'm talking about pay is a measure of respect. When I was in the lower pay brackets I did not get the same respect I got at the much higher rates: same quality of engineering.

Don't scrimp on talent. You will be wasting your money.


So, at $90K a year, that would translate to $45 an hour, that's still reasonable. I was thinking that nuclear engineers billed in the neighborhood of $150/Hr, like some other high tech engineers I know.
Last edited by imaginatium on Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ravingdave
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Postby ravingdave » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:57 pm

KitemanSA wrote:Open source works. But it needn't be all or nothing.
I too am a pro. I am about to retire. To be involved with something like this, I may well work on a PROMISE of payment (stock options or the like). As you say, there is a lot of talent on this board. I suspect there are more than a few here who would almost pay to be involved. Indeed, I suspect there are a number who HAVE paid via the EMC2FDC.



You are correct.


Dear david XXXXXX,

This email confirms that you have paid New Mexico Community Foundation (nmcf@nmcf.org) $500.00 USD using PayPal.

This credit card transaction will appear on your bill as "PAYPAL *NEWMEXICOCO".


Payment Details
Transaction ID: 6P41283423952xxxx
Item Price: $500.00 USD
Total: $500.00 USD
Order Description: EMC2 Fusion Development Fund
Buyer: david XXXXXX


Business Information
Business: New Mexico Community Foundation
Contact E-Mail: nmcf@nmcf.org

Your Confirmed Address

Shipping Info: david XXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
United States

If you have questions about the shipping and tracking of your purchased item or service, please contact New Mexico Community Foundation at nmcf@nmcf.org.



Dear david XXXXXX,

This email confirms that you have paid New Mexico Community Foundation (nmcf@nmcf.org) $100.00 USD using PayPal.

This credit card transaction will appear on your bill as "PAYPAL *NEWMEXICOCO".


Payment Details
Transaction ID: 0X985256PU735XXXX
Item Price: $100.00 USD
Total: $100.00 USD
Order Description: EMC2 Fusion Development Fund
Buyer: david XXXXXXXX


Business Information
Business: New Mexico Community Foundation
Contact E-Mail: nmcf@nmcf.org

Your Confirmed Address

Shipping Info: david XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
United States

If you have questions about the shipping and tracking of your purchased item or service, please contact New Mexico Community Foundation at nmcf@nmcf.org.





As i've mentioned a long time ago, I kicked in $ 600.00. Was willing to go to $10K, if 20 other people were willing to do it. (or equivilant) This was during the time when EMC2 was not being funded, and I felt the work was too important to allow it to languish. Now i'm glad I didn't give them that much, and wish I hadn't given them the $ 600.00 . The government effortlessly pushing in $2,000,000.00 makes those of us who contributed our own money into a bunch of chumps.

Even so, If I was going to throw away some money, I could have thrown it away on worse things than EMC2.


David

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:40 pm

nuclear engineers billed in the neighborhood of $150/Hr


Those are exactly the people I want.

The bean counters never consider the cost of mistakes avoided. Or the productivity of engineers.

Engineering quality is very variable. I expect to get 10X or 20X the quality and productivity by paying 3X as much.

With higher quality help I can get by with a much smaller staff.

Brooks explains it here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/020183 ... 0201835959
The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

imaginatium
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Postby imaginatium » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:30 am

MSimon wrote:
nuclear engineers billed in the neighborhood of $150/Hr


Those are exactly the people I want.

The bean counters never consider the cost of mistakes avoided. Or the productivity of engineers.

Engineering quality is very variable. I expect to get 10X or 20X the quality and productivity by paying 3X as much.

With higher quality help I can get by with a much smaller staff.

Brooks explains it here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/020183 ... 0201835959
The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering


But you miss my premise. I'm not suggesting getting people who are less than the best. I'm suggesting getting the people who could be charging the highest rate, but are willing to work for far below what they could get. No one could argue that, $30-50 dollars an hour is not enough money to live comfortably on. The reason they charge $150 is that market forces, let them get away with it. There are people, who are not too obsessed with self interest, to recognize that creating a abundant energy for the planet, is more valuable,than being able to afford a new mercedes every year.

derg
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Postby derg » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:55 am

You're missing his point. It's not about buying a new Mercedes. Money is one of the few commonly accepted ways to measure proficiency (like it or not). Without the money factor it's much more difficult to assess competency.

It is also necessary in matters of complex engineering in that it allows for high degrees of specialization which otherwise wouldn't exist. Big projects need lots of people- from the Oppenheimers all the way down to the people who make the coffee. If you give Oppenheimer enough to pay someone to make his coffee, you're not pampering him; you're giving him more time to do what he does best.


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