Polywell Visions: Transprotation

If polywell fusion is developed, in what ways will the world change for better or worse? Discuss.

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GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:16 pm

IIUC, the Poly is really more efficient the larger you make it. If you want a small craft, it might be better to hope for a DPF fusor. Some of the spacecraft studies done have included Lerner's type machine and it seems the right size for your own personal starfighter or light freighter. To build a Millenium Falcon you'd want batteries of them but that seems doable.

There's some good analysis of mass/fractions etc. in Bussard's paper:

http://www.askmar.com/Fusion_files/From ... 0Moons.pdf
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

cksantos
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Postby cksantos » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:09 pm

GIThruster wrote: personal starfighter or light freighter


have spacesuit will travel...

So I need a few billion from the trust fund for the DFP.

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:24 am

cksantos wrote: ill give you sea without argument. without maintaining the liquid fuel infrastructure how can you do ground? It seems only trains would have the payload capacities. Air seems to be on the threshold of "too big to be practical", especially with the municipal airport point to point travel ie jetblue.(VS hub architecture)
My suggestions maintain the liquid fuel infrastructure, or at least LNG or PNG which is used in many vehicles today. Aircraft would need further liquifaction.

Yes, H2 is a plausibility, but handling it is STILL a show stopper IMHO. And if you can handle LH2, LNG is a no-brainer!

krenshala
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Postby krenshala » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:06 am

KitemanSA wrote:Yes, H2 is a plausibility, but handling it is STILL a show stopper IMHO. And if you can handle LH2, LNG is a no-brainer!

Didn't folks say the same thing about gasoline back when the automobile was being first introduced? Handling the fuel, gasoline, is a show stopper! If it spills in an accident, your vehicle is sitting in a (potentially flaming) puddle of it!

With H2, however, its gaseous, and goes up ... though I do admit the potential to be a flaming cloud a vapor does still exist. :)

cksantos
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Postby cksantos » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:18 am

Ahhhh I see so we can still drive cars, but the fuel is made from air.

I was just thinking about it from the battery perspective too, with A123's new batts electric cars probably aren't that far off, and they can just plug in at home.

We need polywell here in hawaii, I pay 40 cents per kilowatt/h its highest in the nation I think, and gas is like 4 bucks now too, also highest in the nation, here on the island of Maui. Oahu is a tiny bit cheaper.

How realistic does anyone think electric/hybrid prop airplanes are? Brushless R/C motors are only getting bigger and better, as are the electronic speed controllers.

cgray45
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Postby cgray45 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:56 am

Not very-- or rather I doubt polywell will be small enough to power such an aircraft which means you'd have to have some other method of storing the energy and batteries are still far from that.

Seriously, I think polywell would lead to synthasized gasoline, which would allow us to continue to use the most mature technology we have for small vehicle power-- IC engines.

GIThruster
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Postby GIThruster » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:53 am

cksantos wrote:Ahhhh I see so we can still drive cars, but the fuel is made from air.

I was just thinking about it from the battery perspective too, with A123's new batts electric cars probably aren't that far off, and they can just plug in at home.

We need polywell here in hawaii, I pay 40 cents per kilowatt/h its highest in the nation I think, and gas is like 4 bucks now too, also highest in the nation, here on the island of Maui. Oahu is a tiny bit cheaper.

How realistic does anyone think electric/hybrid prop airplanes are? Brushless R/C motors are only getting bigger and better, as are the electronic speed controllers.


NASA and DOD are examining brushless ducted fan motors because they're anticipating very advanced electrical energy storage. Not just fans. "Quiet" electrical vehicles like troop transports, land, sea and sky.

A123 is a happenin' thang, re: the Chevy Volt, but the real news will be if EEStor has what they say they have.

I've seen 3 instances where the claims by EEStor are treated as paultry. Looks like USG already has something much better. That doesn't mean we'll see it in the next decade.

OBama promised to release lots of DOD tech to the civilian sector. Are you holding your breath?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:22 am

claims by EEStor are treated as paultry


The consensus (FWIW) around here is long dead poultry - i.e. EEStor stinks.

We are still waiting for the December announcement.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:25 am

With the announcement of Fe SCs and the "power goes up as size goes down" scaling laws (for SCs), I believe an aircraft Polywell is possible.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Stoney3K
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Postby Stoney3K » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:38 am

cksantos wrote:Space weapons are technically illegal.


When you have a gun that's big enough, the rules of engagement don't apply anymore.

Sure, somebody can tell you "Hey, you're not allowed to do that!", but that won't stop you from blasting their city off the map.

Anyway, orbital weapons satellites are quite a few years away at least, so how about thinking on the short term first?

Right now, a lot of transport is relying on fossil combustibles, where most engines (reciprocating or turbine) can run on other combustible materials as well.

If you can make H2 and source CO2 (fx. from giant scrubbers), you can synthesize about any hydrocarbon you need. Convert the whole lot into ethanol, and fill up your wheels like you're used to.

Of course, making engines more fuel efficient is always a plus, if only to save on your gas bill.
Because we can.

cksantos
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Postby cksantos » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:27 pm

GIThruster wrote:
cksantos wrote:Ahhhh I see so we can still drive cars, but the fuel is made from air.

I was just thinking about it from the battery perspective too, with A123's new batts electric cars probably aren't that far off, and they can just plug in at home.

We need polywell here in hawaii, I pay 40 cents per kilowatt/h its highest in the nation I think, and gas is like 4 bucks now too, also highest in the nation, here on the island of Maui. Oahu is a tiny bit cheaper.

How realistic does anyone think electric/hybrid prop airplanes are? Brushless R/C motors are only getting bigger and better, as are the electronic speed controllers.


Ya well some one was telling me that Obama was going to disclose aliens as well and that never happened. People are obsessed with what Obama is going to "change" but it never quite meets any ones expectations. Who would have guessed he would give NASA MORE money after his campaign comments...

NASA and DOD are examining brushless ducted fan motors because they're anticipating very advanced electrical energy storage. Not just fans. "Quiet" electrical vehicles like troop transports, land, sea and sky.

A123 is a happenin' thang, re: the Chevy Volt, but the real news will be if EEStor has what they say they have.

I've seen 3 instances where the claims by EEStor are treated as paultry. Looks like USG already has something much better. That doesn't mean we'll see it in the next decade.

OBama promised to release lots of DOD tech to the civilian sector. Are you holding your breath?

cksantos
Posts: 66
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Location: Hawaii

Postby cksantos » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:28 pm

GIThruster wrote:
cksantos wrote:Ahhhh I see so we can still drive cars, but the fuel is made from air.

I was just thinking about it from the battery perspective too, with A123's new batts electric cars probably aren't that far off, and they can just plug in at home.

We need polywell here in hawaii, I pay 40 cents per kilowatt/h its highest in the nation I think, and gas is like 4 bucks now too, also highest in the nation, here on the island of Maui. Oahu is a tiny bit cheaper.

How realistic does anyone think electric/hybrid prop airplanes are? Brushless R/C motors are only getting bigger and better, as are the electronic speed controllers.



NASA and DOD are examining brushless ducted fan motors because they're anticipating very advanced electrical energy storage. Not just fans. "Quiet" electrical vehicles like troop transports, land, sea and sky.

A123 is a happenin' thang, re: the Chevy Volt, but the real news will be if EEStor has what they say they have.

I've seen 3 instances where the claims by EEStor are treated as paultry. Looks like USG already has something much better. That doesn't mean we'll see it in the next decade.

OBama promised to release lots of DOD tech to the civilian sector. Are you holding your breath?


Ya well some one was telling me that Obama was going to disclose aliens as well and that never happened. People are obsessed with what Obama is going to "change" but it never quite meets any ones expectations. Who would have guessed he would give NASA MORE money after his campaign comments...

93143
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Postby 93143 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:58 am

He didn't. Subtract the CxP cancellation costs and you get a significant cut.

That's not even considering the fact that the proposed increase in 2011 including CxP termination charges was about 1.6%, which is less than the CPI inflation rate, never mind aerospace inflation...

Anything beyond 2011 is hot air. In fact, there have been noises already about large cuts in the out years, and the budget hasn't even been passed yet...


I must say; I'm liking what the numbers are telling me re: those super-high-field iron-based superconductors... SSTA anyone?

cgray45
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Postby cgray45 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:23 am

MSimon wrote:With the announcement of Fe SCs and the "power goes up as size goes down" scaling laws (for SCs), I believe an aircraft Polywell is possible.


What about the radiation? Even a P+B11 produces some, and the shielding woudl be quite heavy.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:39 am

cgray45 wrote:
MSimon wrote:With the announcement of Fe SCs and the "power goes up as size goes down" scaling laws (for SCs), I believe an aircraft Polywell is possible.


What about the radiation? Even a P+B11 produces some, and the shielding woudl be quite heavy.


Smaller reactor - smaller shield volume/weight.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.


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