Constraints on growth even in a world with cheap electricity

If polywell fusion is developed, in what ways will the world change for better or worse? Discuss.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

hanelyp
Posts: 2255
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby hanelyp » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:42 am


Betruger
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby Betruger » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:57 am


CharlesKramer
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby CharlesKramer » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:26 am

================================
CBK
Blog: http://www.provideocoalition.com/ckramer

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby KitemanSA » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:59 am


CharlesKramer
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby CharlesKramer » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:35 pm

In response to KitemanSA

I see only conclusions. Conclusions without hard data is premature at best, and usually is just wishful thinking.

> Algae blooms in the northern Gulf of Mexico?

Back it up. And consider:

1. HOW MUCH algae would be needed to relace petroleum? In general, the energy from plant life that can generated in a year is much less than the energy we use in a year. In the case of ethanol, for example, there's not arable enough land in USA.

2. WHAT IS THE EFFECT ON THE SEA and SEA LIFE? The big lesson is what humanity does affects the world. If you can get the sea to produce enough algae, how is the sea affected?

> > How many of the millions of things today made with fossil fuels
> > as an industrial feedstock can today be made from plants?

> 100%.

Again, purely a conclusion. From what I read, the ability to transform any kind of plant life into polymers (or other things made with hydrocarbons) is (1) expensive, and (2) experimental.

> Pacific Ocean algae could be harvested using wind and wave power
> And with a small fusion reactor, it would be EASY

I see no research --- let alone proof of concept -- that shows algae + electricity = ANYTHING.

> There are many "bio-degradable" plastics made of corn and other such things NOW

In widespread use -- on an industrial scale? Examples, please. I know Pepsi is considering using such bottles, but they're still experimentals -- and that's for just ONE type of plastic.

>> [1] Today we use 10 calories of fossil fuel to produce one calorie of
>> food (taking into account shipping, farm machinery, fertilizer, etc.).
>> http://www.energybulletin.net/node/5045

> Foolish. Much of that could be nuclear

You obviously didn't read the link I provided.

Oil and natural gas today are vital to make fertilizer and insecticide. Without them, crop yeilds fall 5x. "Use nuclear" makes no sense as a response.

>> [2] If we stopped eating and devoted all arable USA land to ethanol
>> for transportation, we still wouldn't have enough land to keep us driving.
>> Creating ethanol from corn uses so much oil and natural gas the net
>> benefit is trivial; some even believe negative.
> All that shows is the ETHANOL from Food stuffs is a stupid way to do it!

No, it proves more than that. Petroleum is unbelievably energy rich -- part of the reason why the USA "lifestyle" is considered the equivalent of owning 200 slaves in the ancient world (the only way to be confident of having hot water 24x7, and to be able to get carried around town).

The slave analogy was originally used by Admiral Rickover in his speech about energy in 1957 -- a speech well worth re-reading.

-- about the speech: http://www.energybulletin.net/node/31022

-- the speech itself: http://energybulletin.net/23151.html

> But making organic chemicals from algae is ABOUT as simple as making them from petroleum

And yet, no one is doing it on an industrial scale. Electricity would only help so much -- it's not a big component of most industrial processes (aluminum is an exception -- low grade ore may also be an exception).
================================
CBK
Blog: http://www.provideocoalition.com/ckramer

KitemanSA
Posts: 6114
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Postby KitemanSA » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:14 am



[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1236: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “Implications”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests