JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

crowberry
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:34 am

JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by crowberry »

BBC News has this article "UK centre to shoot for nuclear fusion record" by Paul Rincon:
Prof Steve Cowley told the BBC a go-ahead to run Jet at maximum power would allow scientists to try for the record by the end of the decade.

This could bring Jet up to the coveted goal of "breakeven" where fusion yields as much energy as it consumes.
"Our world record was from 1997, we think we can improve on it quite considerably and get some really spectacular results. We're winding up to that and by the end of the decade we'll be doing it."
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27138087

One could speculate that this is related to the expected slipping of the ITER schedule even more? It will be interesting to see how much further they can go with 17 years of tokamak experience.

rcain
Posts: 992
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:43 pm
Contact:

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by rcain »

WHOOT! up the Brits! (bet we blow ourselves up in the attempt, the germans will make it actually work and the yanks will eventually make all the money out of it ;) ).

D Tibbets
Posts: 2775
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:52 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by D Tibbets »

Six years to this test/ demo in a machine that is already working?

I suspect this is a final test with all the knobs turned to Full, after they have exhausted their current research program. It might be more risky, but if it is at the end of the machine lifetime anyway...

It would be perhaps useful, or at least rewarding, if future overhaul of JET is hoped for. This would be especially applicable if ITER development continues to escalate in cost and time delay.


Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

crowberry
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:34 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by crowberry »

D Tibbets wrote:Six years to this test/ demo in a machine that is already working?

I suspect this is a final test with all the knobs turned to Full, after they have exhausted their current research program. It might be more risky, but if it is at the end of the machine lifetime anyway...

It would be perhaps useful, or at least rewarding, if future overhaul of JET is hoped for. This would be especially applicable if ITER development continues to escalate in cost and time delay.
JET has been upgraded with a new "ITER like" inner wall. They will optimize the settings and operation modes for a couple of years also in view of ITER operation and then have a DT campaign in 2017. To account for any unexpected problems and delays the target has been probably been set as the end of the decade rather than 2017.
In 1997, the Jet team achieved a major breakthrough, generating a world record 16MW of fusion power. But, says Cowley, the lack of political interest in climate change relative to today meant their achievement didn't get the attention it deserved – something he hopes to rectify in 2017, when the team will attempt to break their previous record in a new series of tests.
http://www.theguardian.com/big-energy-d ... y-research

Their goal is to demonstrate break even to demonstrate the scientific feasability, which would be a huge step forward for anyone who is first to do that.

JET is used for research supporting ITER, so they will not take any risks with it because it is needed for many years to come.

Ivy Matt
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 6:43 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by Ivy Matt »

http://www.ccfe.ac.uk/news_detail.aspx?id=277
Engineers at CCFE have begun to prepare Europe's flagship fusion device JET for a new set of full-power experiments using tritium fuel.

The tests, currently scheduled for 2017-18, will be the first with tritium since 2003 and will act as an important ‘dress rehearsal' for the key international ITER project, due online in the early 2020s, in preparation for ITER's own operation with tritium.
http://www.ccfe.ac.uk/news_detail.aspx?id=279
A major new contract worth €283 million has been signed between the European Commission and Culham Centre for Fusion Energy, enabling CCFE to continue to operate JET – for use by the EUROfusion consortium of European fusion research laboratories – until the end of 2018.
Temperature, density, confinement time: pick any two.

303
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:18 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by 303 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b047z8wv - Chris Llewellyn Smith

heard this on the wireless the other day , was interesting

JohnFul
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Augusta, Georgia USA

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by JohnFul »

One of the takeaways I got from my recent visit to NIF was that shaping the power delivered over the period of a shot drastically altered the output or gain from that shot. At NIF, they shoot ~1us laser pulses at a target. The pulse is shaped. It starts out with a certain level of power, then bumps a larger spike, etc., until the final spike at the end of the pulse. You're talking a 20 ft beam that has a unique waveform or "signature". It's all about the waveform that enabled NIF to reach unity in recent tests. How would that translate to jet or ITER where you circle the plasma round in a stew, or is it even possible in that type of design? How would such a concept translate to polywell? Is it possible to shape the magnetic pulse that controls the virtual cathode fast enough to do something like they do at NIF?

crowberry
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:34 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by crowberry »

JohnFul wrote:One of the takeaways I got from my recent visit to NIF was that shaping the power delivered over the period of a shot drastically altered the output or gain from that shot. At NIF, they shoot ~1us laser pulses at a target. The pulse is shaped. It starts out with a certain level of power, then bumps a larger spike, etc., until the final spike at the end of the pulse. You're talking a 20 ft beam that has a unique waveform or "signature". It's all about the waveform that enabled NIF to reach unity in recent tests. How would that translate to jet or ITER where you circle the plasma round in a stew, or is it even possible in that type of design? How would such a concept translate to polywell? Is it possible to shape the magnetic pulse that controls the virtual cathode fast enough to do something like they do at NIF?
A Polywell and a tokamak (including ITER) are supposed to be run in continuous mode, so the fast compression shaping used at NIF is probably of little use. Some of the fusion concepts which are based on pulsed operation might benefit of compression shaping in general like General Fusion.

crowberry
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:34 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by crowberry »

The early overly optimistic estimates about fusion power generation, false leads and the long time scales involved in building a break even tokamak has lead to the view that fusion is far off in the future. This in turn has decreased the interest of the general public and politicians in fusion as a possible energy source. So far fusion has never had the funding needed to adequately explore different promising ideas. With limited funding most effort has put into the so far best performing concept, the tokamak, to minimize risks in spite of the low beta of tokamaks and associated large scale dimensions, costs and building time. Having any fusion concept demonstrating break even would change the general view on fusion and most likely result in more funding.

The best triple product values have been produced with tokamaks and this is the only reason why they are receiving most of the development effort. If some alternative concept can show break even before JET, then it would changed the field significantly.
The interesting thing to follow the next few years is whether LPP, General Fusion, Helion Energy, Sorlox or Lockheed Martin can beat JET.

krenshala
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:20 pm
Location: Austin, TX, NorAm, Sol III

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by krenshala »

crowberry wrote:The early overly optimistic estimates about fusion power generation, false leads and the long time scales involved in building a break even tokamak has lead to the view that fusion is far off in the future.
The initial estimates where based on "full funding" being available for the research. With the possible exception of ITER (of funds) pretty much none of the fusion projects have received anywhere close to the funding level assumed for the estimates on how long it would take to get all the required breakthroughs. This leads to the lovely circular logic situation that low funding leads to constantly shifting completion dates, which leads to lower funding, which leads to even farther out dates, etc.

This isn't to say all the plans would have worked, just that we would have learned from them and moved on to more promising ideas sooner if higher funding levels had been provided, even if they weren't at the "full funding" levels used for the initial projections.

Skipjack
Posts: 6073
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by Skipjack »

crowberry wrote: The interesting thing to follow the next few years is whether LPP, General Fusion, Helion Energy, Sorlox or Lockheed Martin can beat JET.
Does Sorlox have funding yet? Last I saw of them, they were still looking for more funding.

crowberry
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:34 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by crowberry »

Skipjack wrote: Does Sorlox have funding yet? Last I saw of them, they were still looking for more funding.
Skipjack, I don't know if Sorlox has aquired new funding. They have a page on Gust so they are trying to acquire funding:
https://gust.com/companies/sorlox_corporation

Do you know the Sorlox guys personally?

Skipjack
Posts: 6073
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by Skipjack »

crowberry wrote:
Skipjack wrote: Does Sorlox have funding yet? Last I saw of them, they were still looking for more funding.
Skipjack, I don't know if Sorlox has aquired new funding. They have a page on Gust so they are trying to acquire funding:
https://gust.com/companies/sorlox_corporation

Do you know the Sorlox guys personally?
No, I don't know them, personally. Last thing I read was that they were waiting for another grant from DARPA to finish development. No idea what happened with that.

crowberry
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:34 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by crowberry »

The first batch of tritium has been delivered to Culham Centre for Fusion Energy (CCFE) for the JET tritium campaign, see the article JET’s next tritium experiments materialise
Experiments with tritium are rare events which spark curiosity amongst the fusion community both in Europe and beyond. The Culham Centre for Fusion Energy, home to JET, has just received the first batch of tritium as part of preparations for the next set of full tritium experiments scheduled in 2017/2018.

Since 2011, JET has been using beryllium and tungsten as plasma-facing materials in the vessel. As the name suggests JET’s ITER-like wall is constructed using the same materials that will be used in ITER, the next generation fusion experiment which is currently being built in France.

So far, experiments with the new wall have been fuelled by hydrogen and deuterium. Since the most economic fuel for future fusion power plants is a mix of deuterium and tritium, this mixture needs to be put to the test.
https://www.euro-fusion.org/2015/06/jet ... terialise/

The interesting question is of course how much JET can improve on their previous record and whether any dark horse will beat them before that?

D Tibbets
Posts: 2775
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:52 am

Re: JET will attempt Q-record by the end of the decade

Post by D Tibbets »

Another question is what are they changing from previous tests. Higher temperatures, higher B fields, better control of edge instabilities, Beta pushed a little further.... ? Do they hope to reach ignition ?

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

Post Reply