Soviet Shuttle.

[Diogenes]

http://designyoutrust.com/2015/07/man-n ... -surprise/

[ladajo]

Pretty good copy. Another demonstrative clue for the lack soviet engineering capability.
We see this today, and in the PRC as well.
Stealing is easier than doing. A core cultural difference.

[krenshala]

Not disputing your point, but the Soviets did go for some interesting design differences on the Buran compared to the Space Shuttle.

Liquid fueled 1st stage and leaving main engines off the orbiter itself are the main two the come to mind. Both methods have their advantages and drawbacks of course, and I'm really not sure if one is "better" than the other, but definitely interesting differences.

[ladajo]

I believe part of that was a materials technology limitation on their part.

[krenshala]

If that was the case, it was definitely an example of using a weakness as a strength.

[ladajo]

I see what you did there

[Skipjack]

The Buran was mostly a clone of the US designed Space Shuttle. I think it was more of a "we can do it too" thing. But they did have their very own design with the Bor before it was cancelled in favor of the Buran. The Bor design is what later became the HL-20 and now the Dream Chaser. So I would call that a pretty decent design.
The Russians also developed some really good and sophisticated liquid hydrocarbon engines that beat American counterparts of their time in every aspect. The RD 180 was developed for the very Energia launch vehicle that the Buran was riding piggy back on. Heck the US is still buying them from the Russians for the Atlas launch vehicle to this day!
Due to their high thrust, kerolox engines are really good booster engines, which is why SpaceX is using kerolox engines for their own rockets now (improving on Russian kerolox engines quite a bit too). Interestingly SpaceX is developing a full flow staged combustion LOX+CH4 rocket engine. The Russians had both things before the US as well, though not combined in a single engine.
So saying that the Soviets/Russians were/are lacking ingenuity is not entirely fair. They were more held back by their crappy political system than anything else.

[JoeP]

That shuttle had a very successful first flight. If the USSR did not collapse, I wonder if the Russians would have had more good results with it.

[ladajo]

Heck the US is still buying them from the Russians for the Atlas launch vehicle to this day!

Because it costs to much to make them here, annnd, there happened to be a large pile of them rotting on the Khazakstan Steppe with no purpose. Can you say, "Supply, please meet my friend, Demand".

Not saying they are a bad engine, they do the job, and ULA resourced them with more economy (probably by a magnitude) than homegrown. However, political, reliability, and performance pressures are now shifting the balance back to homegrown.
Since Marshall dissected an F-1, and other work on improving engine performances for low, med, high and vacuum alts, as well as additive manufacturing advances in exotic metals, we are well staged to jump back on the bus with cost effective large scale engine production. Especially if we can get the majority of them back a-la SpaceX.

I do give credit for Soviet and Russian work where due, and they have advanced knowledge in a number of areas. Unfortunately, they also have a long standing tradition of standing tall on the work of others. One can quickly tell when the Soviet/Russian Tech is independent or derived work. It clearly presents as two distinct flavors when put out in public. Somethings they have not figured out or been able to mimic/copy. Others they have. Even their armor designs are american based, and have been for 70 years.

[Skipjack]

Heck the US is still buying them from the Russians for the Atlas launch vehicle to this day!

Because it costs to much to make them here, annnd, there happened to be a large pile of them rotting on the Khazakstan Steppe with no purpose. Can you say, "Supply, please meet my friend, Demand".

Not saying they are a bad engine, they do the job, and ULA resourced them with more economy (probably by a magnitude) than homegrown. However, political, reliability, and performance pressures are now shifting the balance back to homegrown.
Since Marshall dissected an F-1, and other work on improving engine performances for low, med, high and vacuum alts, as well as additive manufacturing advances in exotic metals, we are well staged to jump back on the bus with cost effective large scale engine production. Especially if we can get the majority of them back a-la SpaceX.

I do give credit for Soviet and Russian work where due, and they have advanced knowledge in a number of areas. Unfortunately, they also have a long standing tradition of standing tall on the work of others. One can quickly tell when the Soviet/Russian Tech is independent or derived work. It clearly presents as two distinct flavors when put out in public. Somethings they have not figured out or been able to mimic/copy. Others they have. Even their armor designs are american based, and have been for 70 years.

The RD180 was actually built to order for the ULA by Energomash. I think what you are thinking of is the NK33 that was used in Orbital Sciences (now Orbital ATK) ill fated Antares.
Russian rocket engines are very good and generally quite reliable, especially considering the circumstances under which some where developed and built. The flawless flight history of the AtlasV is a testament to that.
Clearly, everyone is copying something from someone, every now and then but the Russian engines are top notch and not just blunt copies of US designs. In fact, the Russians were the first to have staged combustion rocket engines and the first to have full flow staged combustion engines. Their hydrocarbon engines were unsurpassed until very recently. Of course one needs to add that the US had been focusing on solids and hydrolox engines and not on hydrocarbon engines. Still, the Russians did their thing and it is pretty decent and those US companies that are now developing their own hydrocarbon engines are taking a close look at Russian engines for reference. The Raptor developed by SpaceX will be a full flow staged combustion engine, e.g.

[ladajo]

Yes, you are correct, I confused the two.
I would also point out that US advances in engines stagnated with STS. We pretty much defaulted any progress at that point to the Soviet/Russian efforts. Especially liquid birds.
As you said it is and always has been a move/counter move game. That said, there remains some core areas where the US retains lead, and others steal or mimic to try and keep up. Metallurgy and Electronics come to mind.

[Skipjack]

Yes, you are correct, I confused the two.
I would also point out that US advances in engines stagnated with STS. We pretty much defaulted any progress at that point to the Soviet/Russian efforts. Especially liquid birds.
As you said it is and always has been a move/counter move game. That said, there remains some core areas where the US retains lead, and others steal or mimic to try and keep up. Metallurgy and Electronics come to mind.

Not sure about metallurgy, but electronics, definitely. From what I have seen and heard, Russian electronics seem rather antiquated compared to US electronics. Their cyber criminals are good, though

[ladajo]

The US enjoys a significant advantage in Materials Science. A lot remains export controlled, just like electronics.

[Skipjack]

The US enjoys a significant advantage in Materials Science. A lot remains export controlled, just like electronics.

And I admit that my knowledge in this field is pretty small. So I have no reason to doubt you when you say that.

[paperburn1]

This was back in the 70s I remember going through the white papers on the mig 25 that Victor somebody landed in Japan. They had used a lot of steel and hand welding to make the aircraft because they really didn't have the capabilities to work titanium successfully. Evaluation electronics at first we thought amusing because they had so many teeny tiny vacuum tubes. The later realize because of this and the steel structure of the aircraft the planes were pretty much EMP proof. I wonder how far they have actually advanced in these fields today