China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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tomschuring
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China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby tomschuring » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:59 pm

102 seconds @ 50 million degrees Celsius




i'll just leave this here.

ladajo
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby ladajo » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:07 pm

Cool! Thanks for the posting.
I wonder how long it will take the German Stellarator to reply?
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby Robthebob » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:00 am

This isn't even close to being a fair comparison. One's a Tok and the other is a Stellarator.

I don't know what the target temperature and target confinement time is supposed to be on the top of my head. But I kinda don't think the W7-X was meant to show it can hit those targets. I thought it was just to show, we can make a huge Stellarator, we can get the temperature high, we can do all this with zero instabilities.
Throwing my life away for this whole Fusion mess.

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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby Giorgio » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:17 am

A society of dogmas is a dead society.

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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby ladajo » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:38 pm

I also think that the base comparison for all machines is "fusion conditions sustained".
It would seem that temp & confinement time is a good basic measure.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

AcesHigh
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby AcesHigh » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:18 am

ok, in that case, how good is the news of such long time at those temperatures?

is that bad news for other fusion technologies competing with Tokamaks?

ladajo
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby ladajo » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:59 am

I would say it pretty good.
That said, there are a couple of other contenders that may perform similarly or better in the near future.
To get a good sense, we would need to put together a little table to compare the various efforts.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby D Tibbets » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:49 am

Confinement time and temperature are measures of performance, but it doesn't suggest anything close to achieving goals unless density is also included. It is the Triple product that is the criteria that has meaning.

My recollection is that Tokamaks or the ITER goals, I don't remember which, have (already) pushed past 5000 eV (55 million degrees), confinement times of ~ 800 seconds, and densities of 10^19 to 10^20 particles per M^3.

There has been criticisms that the Polywell is completely inadequate with confinement times of under a second, especially with claimed Tokamak times of ~ 800 seconds, but when density and temperature both are included the picture is completely different.

As such, if the stellarator is anticipated to achieve higher densities, shorter confinement times may actually suggest greater performance.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

ladajo
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby ladajo » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:20 pm

Dan,
Density is more machine dependant in my opinion.
Whereas temp/time gives a quick sense of the where tje machine is at. Especi6when considering pre fusion work.
At he bottom line, triple product is mo' betta.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

D Tibbets
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby D Tibbets » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:36 am

Iadajo,
Perhaps with a stable magnetic confinement (convex fields towards the plasma always), the temp and confinement time may serve as a good measure of position on the goal graph, but without considering density in unstable fields like the Tokamak*, the picture is much more uncertain. Controlling density driven edge instabilities seem to be the major concern in Tokamaks at present. If a stellarator can control most of the instabilities, even at increased densities, it has an exponential advantage, and direct comparison of the other two parameters alone (assuming density is a constant between the systems) are even more confounding. It effects not only the scientific goals but the economical goals as well. Greater density implies greater energy density and probably smaller and cheaper machines.

*The Lockheed machine seems to be a hybird, stable B fields face the vast(?) majority of the plasma, but that circulating outside the primary magnets face unstable B fields. The saving grace is, I understand, that here the plasma density is much less so the relative effects are tolorable.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

Giorgio
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby Giorgio » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:14 am

Dan,

Edge Instabilities are connected to confinement time, so longer confinement time means already a better control in edge instabilities (and W7-X should be able to handle this issue easily according design parameters).
As for densities, I partially agree with your point, but let's wait till they warm up the machine and start to make some real test shots.
I have been reading a lot of papers on W7-X, and there are good hints pointing to the fact that (in theory) Density importance has been overestimated in a Stellarator type machine. As I said, these are just "theories" so far, but will be easy and quick to check them once the machine is fully operational.
A society of dogmas is a dead society.

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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby ladajo » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:47 pm

What he said.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

D Tibbets
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby D Tibbets » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:14 pm

To error is human... and I'm very human.

D Tibbets
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby D Tibbets » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:37 pm

A more valid comparison of the Chinese Tokamak may be its comparative confinement time to JET or the Japanese Tokamak. It could still be highly miss leading though because of the two other parameters.

I don't know what the 1 sec. confinement time for this new Stellarator could be compared to. Obviously computer modeling helps, but I understand that this is such a profound improvement in the Stellarator hardware, that comparing it to older efforts is challenging . Is one second confinement times, even in this early test much improved compared to older designs? And, of course the density and temperature ( or combined into pressure) parameters remain of paramount comparative importance. This Stellarator borders on being a different machine.I speculate that older Stellarator hardware performed only marginally better (if that) compared to Tokamaks, when talking about confinement time verses density. So the confinement time numbers were comparable. This new machine, with much or tremendously improved edge instability characteristics may be anticipated to operate at unobtainable densities compared to Tokamaks, so the confinement times are relatively much shorter.

Of course, Tokamak efforts are not stationary. There are indications that edge instabilities may be controllable to such an extent that densities may be pushed up accordingly. Even in Tokamaks, considering confinement times alone may be misleading.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

ladajo
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Re: China's nuclear fusion machine just smashed Germany's hydrogen plasma record

Postby ladajo » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:26 am

Dan,
Regarding your comments above, what temperature are the stored particles in a Penning trap?

We all agree that the triple product is the best comparison model, however, it was also conceived with steady state burning plasma machines in mind.
If you are talking non-burning plasma, non-steady state (pulsed) machines it becomes less relevant.

That said, a quick dirty check is the concept of being able to maintain highly energetics for a while (temp & time). Low temp is easy, high temp less so.
Now, if you want to do a more detailed look, then count the number of highly energetics in the contained volume.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)


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