North Korean Fusion

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

Giorgio
Posts: 2693
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Postby Giorgio » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:49 pm

MSimon wrote:
I do not see as this example can enter this discussion. I can bring at least a dozen counter example of paranoid people that got the power in their own country and limited their doing to their own country.
So, what is your point?


It depend on if you practice the Method of Intentions or the Method of Capabilities. The second is now doctrine in the US Military.


And who decides who is right and who is wrong when assessing one's capabilities and intention?
Is exactly this kind of "we know all, we are always right" attitude that is placing the USA more and more in a bad spot in the eyes of moderate people of third world countries.

Do we have really to go back to remember who sustained and who was financing Saddam and his politics during the Iranian wars?
And whose financing created and gave power the Taleban Fighters in Afghanistan during the Russian invasions?
Do we really have to go and dig in the big pile of crap that has been most of the US foreign politics toward third world countries in the last 40 years?
Add to it also the crap made by the Russian and European and that's the soup from where the actual Middle East rose.

This to say that you can't simplify the situations we have today in these countries by limiting your points to what happened "after" it was decided that those local rulers become the bad guys.

The only truth we can say is that without our need for oil (and all the income these countries have due to our need) this mess would not exist.
They will probably still kill each other, but we would ignore them like we ignore Congo or Nigeria or Tibet and so on.


MSimon wrote:As to the ME problems being a leftover (at least in some measure) of WW2 you might like the picture and video here:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... eroes.html

Short version: Mein Kamf is still a best seller in the Middle East. Funny - the Euros don't seem to notice.


That does not surprise me, nor I think it is a leftover of WWII. On the contrary, that's just a clear example of how people can be brainwashed once you live in a cleric totalitarian regime.

WizWom
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 1:00 pm
Location: St Joseph, MO
Contact:

Postby WizWom » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:35 pm

MSimon wrote:May I add that Saddam was a student of the Austrian Corporal. Look up Baath Party and its history. You might also want to check out the history of The Muslim Brotherhood.


Hrm. I invoke Godwin's Law, this thread has terminal illness.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

MSimon
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Postby MSimon » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:36 pm

WizWom wrote:
MSimon wrote:May I add that Saddam was a student of the Austrian Corporal. Look up Baath Party and its history. You might also want to check out the history of The Muslim Brotherhood.


Hrm. I invoke Godwin's Law, this thread has terminal illness.


I see, any time you talk about the history and the politics of a region and it leads to the Austrian Corporal it must be air brushed out.

And of course Mein Kampf has nothing to do with the Austrian Corporal. Or WW2.

So let me see. When talking about current politics of the ME no mention must be made of the Muslim Brotherhood (they once linked to an article I wrote) or the Baath Party, or Mein Kampf for fear people might go digging into the dusty recesses of ancient history.

Ignorance is bliss comrades. The Central Committee will tell you all you need to know.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Postby MSimon » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:45 pm

That does not surprise me, nor I think it is a leftover of WWII.


Have you studied the German involvement in the ME preceding and during WW2?

A good place to start would be "The Mufti Of Jerusalem" who Palestinian leader Arafat claimed as "uncle". Now whether "uncle" was an honorific or actual fact is undetermined (at least by me - and I have looked into it.)

BTW the link I posted above has a Palestinian child holding a picture of (I am so Godwined) Hitler alongside Ahmadinnerjacket.

So yeah. Hitler (double Godwined) has nothing to do with the current situation in the ME. Nothing at all. Move along. Nothing to see here.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Postby MSimon » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:45 am

My point to what I posted? Lots of current events have direct connections to history. Unresolved conflicts etc.

North Korea is a relic of a bygone era when it was believed communism was the wave of the future.

I'm writing an article about the coming war in the ME. I will post a link when I'm done.

I might add that the topic at hand invites politics as well as technology speculation. Can't be helped.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Giorgio
Posts: 2693
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Postby Giorgio » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:37 am

MSimon wrote:
That does not surprise me, nor I think it is a leftover of WWII.


Have you studied the German involvement in the ME preceding and during WW2?
So yeah. Hitler (double Godwined) has nothing to do with the current situation in the ME. Nothing at all. Move along. Nothing to see here.


You are still limiting everything to German Involvement while modern ME has been a land of conquer and political experiments from "advanced nations" since the start of our industral age.
The only common root in all the issues we face today in the modern ME is our need for resources.


MSimon wrote:BTW the link I posted above has a Palestinian child holding a picture of (I am so Godwined) Hitler alongside Ahmadinnerjacket.


Yes, I noticed it. Aso Hezhbollah in Palestine is a clerical totalitarian regime no more no less than the Iranian regime.

MSimon
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Postby MSimon » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:56 am

And who decides who is right and who is wrong when assessing one's capabilities and intention?


Capabilities are easier to come by than intentions. i.e. it is possible to roughly count rockets, ships, and divisions.

As to what goes on in the mind of man (intentions) not near as easy.

Let me give it to you straight. The current ME runs on oil and Jew hatred. And who was using Jew hatred in the 1930s to court allies? I'll bet you can guess. Who still uses a famous Western text from the late 20s to justify that hatred? I'll bet you can guess the author of the text.

==

Around 1920 Faisal stated:

The two main branches of the Semitic family, Arabs and Jews, understand one another, and I hope that as a result of interchange of ideas at the Peace Conference, which will be guided by ideals of self-determination and nationality, each nation will make definite progress towards the realization of its aspirations. Arabs are not jealous of Zionist Jews, and intend to give them fair play and the Zionist Jews have assured the Nationalist Arabs of their intention to see that they too have fair play in their respective areas. Turkish intrigue in Palestine has raised jealousy between the Jewish colonists and the local peasants, but the mutual understanding of the aims of Arabs and Jews will at once clear away the last trace of this former bitterness, which, indeed, had already practically disappeared before the war by the work of the Arab Secret Revolutionary Committee, which in Syria and elsewhere laid the foundation of the Arab military successes of the past two years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2% ... _Agreement


A little later the Brits promoted the Mufti in Palestine and some years later the Austrian Corporal got his hand in that game. By 1945 the Mufti was declared a war criminal for siding with a certain Socialist Government in their plans but he was allowed to escape punishment. Probably for "reasons of State". i.e. the Brits were hoping the Arabs would eliminate the Jews as a ME problem.

Jew hatred in the ME was not a foregone conclusion. It was engineered by the Brits and the Germans just took advantage of what the Brits were already doing. Plus they added a few charming ideas of their own. The Perfidy of Albion kicked Albion in the nuts. Served them right.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Giorgio
Posts: 2693
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Postby Giorgio » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:14 pm

Exactly, the whole issue was engineered in at least two centuries, sometimes voluntarily and sometimes issues simply slipped from the master puppet hands and took a wrong turn.

For this exact reason in the eyes of cultured and moderate ME people our leaders are no more no less than what Saddam hussein was in our eyes.

As for capabilities, I agree that you can count what you see, much more difficult when you have to assess something you do not see (and you are not even sure that they have) like in Korea case.

bcglorf
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

ME History

Postby bcglorf » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:17 pm

Exactly, the whole issue was engineered in at least two centuries, sometimes voluntarily and sometimes issues simply slipped from the master puppet hands and took a wrong turn.

You can as justifiably go back 2 millenniums. Western 'empires' are hardly the first to have come through and rearranged the ME. If you go back far enough 90% of the planet can probably lay claim to parts of the ME as a homeland stolen from their ancestors by force. The relevance in the last 2 centuries is simply that the Ottoman grip has been loosening over that time, but when they were on the rise they were just as much the 'master' taking over from the Byzantines.

For this exact reason in the eyes of cultured and moderate ME people our leaders are no more no less than what Saddam hussein was in our eyes.

No, your sources, if you have any for that, are wrong. Read Ali Allawi's "The Occupation of Iraq", he writes a very scathing critique of the American Occupation. He also lays out as self-evident that the overwhelming majority of ME peoples in and neighboring Iraq do not want Saddam back and nobody is pining for his return.

TallDave
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:12 pm
Contact:

Postby TallDave » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:18 pm

WizWom,

Actually, you've just committed the Godwin Invocation Fallacy. Godwin's Law only says that any political thread will eventually devolve to someone being hyperbolically compared to Hitler/Nazis (e.g. "Obama is for gun control -- just like Hitler! Republicans are against illegal immigration -- just like the Nazis!") at which time the thread is over and the person making the comparison loses. Actual history involving Nazis or Hitler is not a Godwin violation.

For falsely invoking Godwin's Law, I fine you 100 internets.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

WizWom
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 1:00 pm
Location: St Joseph, MO
Contact:

Postby WizWom » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:41 pm

MSimon wrote:
WizWom wrote:Hrm. I invoke Godwin's Law, this thread has terminal illness.


I see, any time you talk about the history and the politics of a region and it leads to the Austrian Corporal it must be air brushed out.


That's not how things work. The problem is that even accurate and proper mention of the Nazis for comparison only happens after the thread has already lost all semblance of sanity.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

bcglorf
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

umm

Postby bcglorf » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:34 pm

WizWom wrote:
MSimon wrote:
WizWom wrote:Hrm. I invoke Godwin's Law, this thread has terminal illness.


I see, any time you talk about the history and the politics of a region and it leads to the Austrian Corporal it must be air brushed out.


That's not how things work. The problem is that even accurate and proper mention of the Nazis for comparison only happens after the thread has already lost all semblance of sanity.


Any discussion covering ME politics since about 1920 that mentions the west but not Hitler never had any semblance of sanity.

Giorgio
Posts: 2693
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Re: ME History

Postby Giorgio » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:54 pm

bcglorf wrote:Exactly, the whole issue was engineered in at least two centuries, sometimes voluntarily and sometimes issues simply slipped from the master puppet hands and took a wrong turn.

You can as justifiably go back 2 millenniums. Western 'empires' are hardly the first to have come through and rearranged the ME. If you go back far enough 90% of the planet can probably lay claim to parts of the ME as a homeland stolen from their ancestors by force. The relevance in the last 2 centuries is simply that the Ottoman grip has been loosening over that time, but when they were on the rise they were just as much the 'master' taking over from the Byzantines.


I limited my analisys to the start of the industrialized era to make it short. I agree that we can go back to date some issues up to a couple of milleniums, but most of those issues are not so important in respect to the control of ME resources that is the reason of all the mess in the ME is right now. I hope we can all agree on this point.


bcglorf wrote:For this exact reason in the eyes of cultured and moderate ME people our leaders are no more no less than what Saddam hussein was in our eyes.

No, your sources, if you have any for that, are wrong. Read Ali Allawi's "The Occupation of Iraq", he writes a very scathing critique of the American Occupation. He also lays out as self-evident that the overwhelming majority of ME peoples in and neighboring Iraq do not want Saddam back and nobody is pining for his return.


I speak Arabic and I have worked for 10 years among ME people and discussed with them about anything, from religion to politics. My sources are mainly people from Egypt, Saudi Arabian and Sudan.

I never sustained that people in the ME was willing to have back Saddam.
And you are right, the vast majority of the people hated Saddam, even in countries like Egypt and Sudan very few people liked him.
The problem is that in their eyes our politicians behaved (in removing Saddam) exactly like Saddam was behaving with his people, and for this we are hated in the same way they hated Saddam.

We can argue that most of this hate has been stressed and pushed by fanatic religious Imams and political factions, and I can agree on this, but the main issue is that this hate exists but very few seem to understand it.

TallDave
Posts: 3114
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:12 pm
Contact:

Postby TallDave » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:36 pm

The problem is that in their eyes our politicians behaved (in removing Saddam) exactly like Saddam was behaving with his people, and for this we are hated in the same way they hated Saddam.


Shrug. They're wrong. Part of the reason they live in such squalor is they don't think very well. Liberal democracy is a learning process, both economically and politically, which they have been deprived. When you live under state media that compares Jews to apes and treats "The Protocols of The Elders Of Zion" as a documentary you're likely to have some very stupid beliefs. That doesn't affect the objective morality of removing Saddam, or that we took incredible pains to do so as humanely as possible, and spent great amounts of blood and treasure to help them develop something resembling a liberal democracy. If they think that was "acting like Saddam..."

As Dogbert says, the most powerful force in the universe is Ignorance, followed by Apathy.

People in Iraq are starting to learn; they swung away from representative tribalism so hard last election they must have needed a National Whiplash Treatment Center afterward, to give the secular nationalists behind Allawi a majority. The next ten years there should be interesting.

to the control of ME resources that is the reason of all the mess in the ME is right now. I hope we can all agree on this point.


The resources are only important because the region is so backwards that they're the only source of wealth. Did you know the U.S. produces more oil than Iran, Iraq and Kuwait combined? Most of our real wealth lies in the intangible assets of the society we've built.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

bcglorf
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

Catering Policy

Postby bcglorf » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:43 pm

I limited my analisys to the start of the industrialized era to make it short. I agree that we can go back to date some issues up to a couple of milleniums...

Let me cut you off there and say that I believe you also limited your analysis because it is inconvenient to your previously stated conclusion:
I believe more that it has been and it still is European and American presence in the middle East that has screwed up and is still screwing up the ME from 1800 to our days.
Ignoring the entirety of what happened prior to 1800 is awfully convenient, you get to blame the legacy of everything that went before on the new guy. Like the British Empire from 1800 onwards, or America in Iraq after 2003.

I speak Arabic and I have worked for 10 years among ME people and discussed with them about anything, from religion to politics. My sources are mainly people from Egypt, Saudi Arabian and Sudan.

Yes, you mentioned that before.

The problem is that in their eyes our politicians behaved (in removing Saddam) exactly like Saddam was behaving with his people, and for this we are hated in the same way they hated Saddam.

This reminds me of your first hand observations before:

I was in Cairo when 11 September happened and I saw the people spend the night making feast and distributing candies on the roads.

I suppose they were celebrating the revenge against the Americans for their future removal of Saddam?

The problem with a great many reasons people hate America over is concisely answered by TallDave: "They're wrong."

The dictators and royalty managing the propaganda in many ME countries may have done a great job telling their people why to hate America, but if most of it is falsehoods, half-truths and lies then American foreign policy isn't the place to look to for the solution now is it?


Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests