# Talk-Polywell.org

a discussion forum for Polywell fusion
 It is currently Sun May 19, 2013 2:09 am

 All times are UTC

 Page 13 of 20 [ 297 posts ] Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 20  Next
 Print view Previous topic | Next topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:48 am

Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 1978
tomclarke wrote:
heating: increasing average temperature
Agreed
tomclarke wrote:
In non-equilibrium distributions temperature is not well defined, but it is usual to relate average KE of non-equilibrium particles to the temperature that would have that same average KE.
Not totally agreed.
Quote:
If the only extensive quantity that is allowed to fluctuate is the internal energy, all the other ones being kept strictly constant, the temperature of the system is measurable and meaningful. The system's properties are then most conveniently described using the thermodynamic potential Helmholtz free energy (A = U - TS), a Legendre transformation of the energy. If, next to fluctuations of the energy, the macroscopic dimensions (volume) of the system are left fluctuating, we use the Gibbs free energy (G = U + PV - TS), where the system's properties are determined both by the temperature and by the pressure. Non-equilibrium systems are much more complex and they may undergo fluctuations of more extensive quantities.

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:02 pm

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 1053
Joseph Chikva wrote:
Dear Dr. 93143

Hold up - I'm not done my Ph.D. yet. Still working on it...

Joseph Chikva wrote:
93143 wrote:
Heating means adding kinetic energy without a corresponding net addition of momentum;
This is acceleration and not heating as heating is the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat
Quote:
Heat is energy transferred from one system to another by thermal interaction.[1][2] In contrast to work, heat is always accompanied by a transfer of entropy. Heat flow is characteristic of macroscopic objects and systems, but its origin and properties can be understood in terms of their microscopic constituents.

That is the common understanding of the noun "heat", yes. However, the verb is a bit different (though as I noted in my previous post, it is still usually understood to refer to a thermal process). In special situations dealing with systems that exhibit substantial non-thermal behaviour, as Polywell is claimed to, the word "heating" may legitimately be extended to cover non-thermal energy addition. English does allow this sort of thing.

I am not here claiming that EMC2 has necessarily done this. They may (for all we know) simply be talking about a thermal plasma. But their choice of words does not prove it.

"Acceleration" as commonly understood means addition of kinetic energy with a corresponding increase in net momentum. Certainly it is (on its own, without elaboration) a misleading and inaccurate term for what electron injection is supposed to do in a Polywell.

Besides, just because the distribution is nonthermal doesn't mean it's beamlike. "Heating" is a much more useful term in general, unless you want to try to make one up...?

Quote:
And I do not see difference between "heating" and "thrmalization".

The difference is that they are conceptually two different things. Even if I were to grant (which I do not) that "heating" can only ever describe energy addition occurring very near thermodynamic equilibrium or having thermodynamic equilibrium as a proximate endpoint, the process of relaxation towards that equilibrium is still a separate physical process that requires a different word to describe it.

Basically, what tomclarke said.

In fact, heating even in the conventional sense generally involves an excursion from thermodynamic equilibrium, which thermalization is then required to counter. For instance, if you assume complete thermodynamic equilibrium in a fluid, you end up with the Euler equations...

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:18 pm

Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 1978
93143 wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:
Dear Dr. 93143

Hold up - I'm not done my Ph.D. yet. Still working on it...

Joseph Chikva wrote:
93143 wrote:
Heating means adding kinetic energy without a corresponding net addition of momentum;
This is acceleration and not heating as heating is the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat
Quote:
Heat is energy transferred from one system to another by thermal interaction.[1][2] In contrast to work, heat is always accompanied by a transfer of entropy. Heat flow is characteristic of macroscopic objects and systems, but its origin and properties can be understood in terms of their microscopic constituents.

That is the common understanding of the noun "heat", yes. However, the verb is a bit different (though as I noted in my previous post, it is still usually understood to refer to a thermal process). In special situations dealing with systems that exhibit substantial non-thermal behaviour, as Polywell is claimed to, the word "heating" may legitimately be extended to cover non-thermal energy addition. English does allow this sort of thing.

I am not here claiming that EMC2 has necessarily done this. They may (for all we know) simply be talking about a thermal plasma. But their choice of words does not prove it.

"Acceleration" as commonly understood means addition of kinetic energy with a corresponding increase in net momentum. Certainly it is (on its own, without elaboration) a misleading and inaccurate term for what electron injection is supposed to do in a Polywell.

Besides, just because the distribution is nonthermal doesn't mean it's beamlike. "Heating" is a much more useful term in general, unless you want to try to make one up...?

Quote:
And I do not see difference between "heating" and "thrmalization".

The difference is that they are conceptually two different things. Even if I were to grant (which I do not) that "heating" can only ever describe energy addition occurring very near thermodynamic equilibrium or having thermodynamic equilibrium as a proximate endpoint, the process of relaxation towards that equilibrium is still a separate physical process that requires a different word to describe it.

Basically, what tomclarke said.

In fact, heating even in the conventional sense generally involves an excursion from thermodynamic equilibrium, which thermalization is then required to counter. For instance, if you assume complete thermodynamic equilibrium in a fluid, you end up with the Euler equations...
I feel that English allows some freedom with verbs.
But as I know nobody calls accelerators "heaters".
Especially in official documents. More likely that word "heating" there means "increasing intensity of chaotic/thermal motion".

In Russian/Georgian we use term “thermalization” but only as slangy word and also meaning "increasing intensity of chaotic/thermal motion". Regardless to has system achieved thermal equillibrium or has not.

Good luck with your PhD work.

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:27 pm

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Posts: 3838
Location: North East Coast
Why is it so hard to communicate that "heating" is raising the total distribution curve, while "thermalising" is flattening the distribution curve. Ie. Higher average, and flatter distribution?

_________________
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:45 pm

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Posts: 563
Location: N.C. Mountains
There seems to be an assumption that the government report was written by someone that was very careful in the scientific meaning of the words. I wouldn't wager money on that myself. Also, in previous reports, "heating" seems to have been interchangeably used with adding energy to the system.
Best regards

_________________
Now, where does one store the borax aboard ship?

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:38 pm

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 1053
"thermalising" is flattening the distribution curve

Not strictly accurate. It's possible to specify a distribution function that most people would agree is "flatter" than a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution; in such a case, the thermalization process would steepen the curve. I expect that something like this is what happens when fluid exiting a shock wave experiences an entropy decrease.

Joseph Chikva wrote:
But as I know nobody calls accelerators "heaters".

You're missing the point, and may need to read more carefully.

Quote:
Good luck with your PhD work.

Thanks. I could use some...

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:07 am

Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 1978
93143 wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:
But as I know nobody calls accelerators "heaters".

You're missing the point, and may need to read more carefully.
I do not see what I am missing and where. As it would be more clear for me if there would be written "Improvement of electron guns for improvement of depth of potential well" instead of "better heating".

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:51 am

Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 4:16 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
The point was to fill out a required form, not to say anything meaningful. So long as it looked good enough to pass muster to the government clerk who received the form, nothing more would be written. The more detail they give the more that they have explain to people who wouldn't understand. Think DMV.

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:36 am

Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 1978
Mike_P wrote:
The point was to fill out a required form, not to say anything meaningful. So long as it looked good enough to pass muster to the government clerk who received the form, nothing more would be written. The more detail they give the more that they have explain to people who wouldn't understand. Think DMV.
Yes, for Government clerk publishing financial reports it's all the same in which form energy will be pumped into the system. But I am recalling the correspodence between Dr. Nebel and USPO examinator. In which USPO examinator who is Government clerk too told also about thermal plasma comparing Polywell with Russian Galatea.

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:37 am

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Posts: 3838
Location: North East Coast
93143 wrote:
"thermalising" is flattening the distribution curve

Not strictly accurate. It's possible to specify a distribution function that most people would agree is "flatter" than a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution; in such a case, the thermalization process would steepen the curve. I expect that something like this is what happens when fluid exiting a shock wave experiences an entropy decrease.

Joseph Chikva wrote:
But as I know nobody calls accelerators "heaters".

You're missing the point, and may need to read more carefully.

Quote:
Good luck with your PhD work.

Thanks. I could use some...

_________________
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:39 am

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Posts: 3838
Location: North East Coast
Mike_P wrote:
The point was to fill out a required form, not to say anything meaningful. So long as it looked good enough to pass muster to the government clerk who received the form, nothing more would be written. The more detail they give the more that they have explain to people who wouldn't understand. Think DMV.

I have to wonder what DMV looks like in the former Soviet Union...

_________________
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:45 am

Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 1978
I have to wonder what DMV looks like in the former Soviet Union...
What is "DMV"?

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:06 am

Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 6:43 am
Posts: 564
It's a government office that exists in most U.S. states (well, all U.S. states, but they're not always called the "DMV"), where people go to wait in long lines and fill out paperwork, two skills that are apparently regarded as essential to properly operate a vehicle.

_________________
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.” —attr. to Andy Finkel, among others

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:15 am

Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 1978
Ivy Matt wrote:
It's a government office that exists in most U.S. states (well, all U.S. states, but they're not always called the "DMV"), where people go to wait in long lines and fill out paperwork, two skills that are apparently regarded as essential to properly operate a vehicle.
Thank you for clarification.

Top

 Post subject: Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:04 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Posts: 12567
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Mike_P wrote:
I have been reviewing the RT video piece

I have been out of the loop for a while what is the RT video?

_________________
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Top

 Display posts from previous: All posts1 day7 days2 weeks1 month3 months6 months1 year Sort by AuthorPost timeSubject AscendingDescending
 Page 13 of 20 [ 297 posts ] Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 20  Next

 All times are UTC

#### Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

 You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
 Jump to:  Select a forum ------------------ Technical Forums    History    Theory    Design Evangelical Forums    Awareness    Fund-Raising    Networking    Implications Community Forums    General    News    Administration