The list of duds

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Carl White
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:44 pm

The list of duds

Postby Carl White » Mon May 28, 2018 8:15 pm

Looking back over the past few years in the forum:

EEStor (final death rattle)
Graphenano (big promises in 2016, nothing since)
Brilluion (seven years later, still no demonstration model)
Cannae Drive (were going to send one into space, nothing since)
QuackX (should be at the top of the list)
Flywheel energy storage (emerged once, sank into oblivion)
Black Light Power (promised demonstration model in 2017 and products later that year, still nothing true to form)

Hmm, what else. I'll dig some more.

Skipjack
Posts: 5912
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: The list of duds

Postby Skipjack » Mon May 28, 2018 8:52 pm

EM drive is pretty much confirmed to be a dud.

PolyGirl
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:16 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: The list of duds

Postby PolyGirl » Tue May 29, 2018 7:07 am

Lenr. Still F..king nothing. (yeah I know, I have absolute contempt for Lenr and in addition BLP).

Regards
Polygirl
The more I know, the less I know.

ladajo
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: The list of duds

Postby ladajo » Tue May 29, 2018 12:01 pm

Why do you think Flywheels are dead? As I understand, the commercial application base is growing, and the hard science is over.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

hanelyp
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: The list of duds

Postby hanelyp » Tue May 29, 2018 2:08 pm

Flywheels have applications. They do great for surge delivery of mechanical energy. The high energy density flywheels intended to replace large batteries haven't delivered the combination of attributes to compete for that purpose. Battery tech having advanced at the same time the flywheels were researched may relate to that.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

alexjrgreen
Posts: 808
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: UK

Re: The list of duds

Postby alexjrgreen » Tue May 29, 2018 3:38 pm

Ars artis est celare artem.

paperburn1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: The list of duds

Postby paperburn1 » Tue May 29, 2018 4:10 pm

Flywheels are dead because the did not live up to the promise of high capacity long term storage. The do a fine job on short term spike and load management (under 5 seconds) but a a medium for high capacity storage , not going to happen.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: The list of duds

Postby ladajo » Tue May 29, 2018 4:26 pm

Can you unpack what you mean with "short term" beyond "5 seconds". Also, "high capacity storage"?
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Giorgio
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Re: The list of duds

Postby Giorgio » Tue May 29, 2018 6:09 pm

Carl White wrote:Black Light Power (promised demonstration model in 2017 and products later that year, still nothing true to form)


Not 2017, BLP has been scamming investors since much longer than that. It was founded in 1991 with a "tested technology", a "working prototype" and a "time to market of 12 months". Their claims and announcements are always the same, just the date change.

They have been around scamming people for the last 27 years! It is something really hard to believe....
Look, stars!

hanelyp
Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: The list of duds

Postby hanelyp » Tue May 29, 2018 8:01 pm

ladajo wrote:Can you unpack what you mean with "short term" beyond "5 seconds". Also, "high capacity storage"?

I recall articles from the late 1970s, early 1980s, when it was hoped that advanced flywheels could match batteries for energy capacity, and hold it for hours or even days. Anticipated applications included utility grid storage (recognized as needed even back then to deal with solar and wind energy), and automobiles.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

ladajo
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: The list of duds

Postby ladajo » Tue May 29, 2018 8:56 pm

Yes, there, as with many concept technologies, was the early pipe dreaming.

I do think the current state of affairs with composite flywheels, vacuum containment, and magnetic bearings, with thought towards high temp superconductor bearings, has flywheels in a competitive position for temp storage. The last few years has seen some significant commercial implementations.

For energy longevity, Beacon Power was claiming in 2010/11 a 97% energy retention at 2 hours of spin.

2010 Beacon Power Fact Sheet

http://beaconpower.com/proven-success/

http://beaconpower.com/news/
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: The list of duds

Postby paperburn1 » Wed May 30, 2018 1:03 am

hanelyp wrote:
ladajo wrote:Can you unpack what you mean with "short term" beyond "5 seconds". Also, "high capacity storage"?


Short term the five seconds would be referencing the amount and duration of the power output in the current units lIE a ups for a blackout, and high capacity storage would more be in the lines of a battery like thought, powered up and left to hold energy as per a primary cell example with no additional input for static loses. Flywheel energy storage systems using mechanical bearings reportedly can lose 20% to 50% of their energy in two hours

There are applications where this would fill just fine such as line balancing comercial power. and in theory they should have considerably less maintenance than a battery powered UPS . Smoothing out sags in power and frequency for a quickly changing load. or used in a less developed countries infrastructure for the same purpose..
I could also see some applications in the sudden burst of power that might be useful for say firing a rail gun in a burst of shots or a cat launch.
but the pipe dream of charging it up via solar or some other intermittent source to power your home though the night, I doubt it will become commercially viable for the home consumer
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: The list of duds

Postby ladajo » Wed May 30, 2018 11:50 am

Yes, I agree that for the home commercial market, there is currently limited, if any, application. Key word, currently. I have not been able to find a spin curve for the magnetic bearing models. However, given a 97% at 2 hours, it would imply that it is going to be rolling with recoverable energy for several more hours. The cost is the most likely limiter for the home market as it stands. As production kicks up to support the commercial demand, economy of scale should kick in, in addition to engineering improvements, which in turn should bring unit costs down over time. It may reach a point, both in storage duration, and cost per unit power where home applications become viable.
I also agree that it will never replace batteries, in the ability to lay dormant for significant time, and still produce power. Where flywheels really shine is the intermittent surge loads. The Ford Cats are already using flywheels. As I understand, the leading contenders for pulse power in support of rail guns or lasers are motor-generator flywheels in a TEU or 2 TEU box. I think the Army has made the most progress on this, in pursuit of a tactical vehicle sized system. Which, I believe they are actively testing prototypes for as I type. And on that note, I need to vent, that I am frustrated with the Navy's current lack of focus in development of point defense or 25nm range rails. This is currently doable with knowledge on hand, however the program remains focused on the long range strike. The application of smaller power mounts would immediately improve some long standing ship build and operating pain by eliminating some hard design requirements to support high volume explosives storage and handling systems for gun mounts. This would free up weight and space, and increase magazine depths, all of which are core design issues for any combatant. <rant concludes>.

Meh.

Flywheels have been around a long time in industry, and mating them with electrical energy is a no brainer. Ironically, one of the problems with historical flywheels has been the spin down in order to support maintenance or shutdowns. It takes time before you can apply a brake. Lots of kinetic looking for a way out, and even when slowed enough to brake, it is hard on the braking mechanism. I had the opportunity to work with some six foot and eight foot wheels in my younger days, and man-o-man were they scary when at speed. You could physically feel the energy, and it would induce visions of these things coming off their foundations and going for a joy ride. We also did periodic inspections looking for cracks and stress tells in the wheels and foundations. Never found anything, as these ones had been manufactured in the 1800s when they didn't screw around with margins... but still... In any event, that was a long, long time ago, in a life far, far away from what my path took me on. Treasured memories for sure, in addition to an imbued respect for nature's ability to concentrate power in small packages.

On a final note, as I understand, most flywheel makers are or have already moved to composite wheels, magnetic bearings, and vacuum chambers.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

krenshala
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Location: Austin, TX, NorAm, Sol III

Re: The list of duds

Postby krenshala » Wed May 30, 2018 12:54 pm

At least one of the data centers here in Austin TX has flywheel storage to supplement, if not replace, UPS battery storage. I'm not sure if they completely replaced batteries or not, however, as it wasn't the DC I worked in. From what I learned talking with one of the techs there, they are quite happy with how it works.

paperburn1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: The list of duds

Postby paperburn1 » Wed May 30, 2018 3:22 pm

I will be the first to admit my knowledge base on this is old and out of date. A little research show that the aircraft carrier Ford is using flywheels. hemm very interesting. Most of my knowledge comes from A-4 AJB 3 bombing and navigation systems and that system has been retired 30 years. Had one gyro unit tumble on me and it made a 300 pound rate table bounce like a ball. anyway enough old sea stories,, Any links on the new tech, I think it might be a interesting read and update for me.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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