Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Giorgio
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Giorgio »

mvanwink5 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:28 pm
On the other hand, Tokamaks have a first wall problem that no one has an economic solution for even after decades of study.
I fully agree on this.
I have been frustrated from the poor amount of investment that was poured into this main technical problem in the last 2 decades.[/quote]
And still it seems that no one of those that control the research funds is really caring about this issue... depressing, to say the least.
mvanwink5 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:28 pm
Helion does not have that.
I don't agree that Helion does not have a first wall problem. Any amount of metal evaporation will create instabilities in the plasma itself that might prevent the correct formation and timing of the Helion process.
Additionally, the consequent metal sputtering inside the machine might destabilize (and possibly completely prevent) any successive shot.
A society of dogmas is a dead society.

Skipjack
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Skipjack »

Giorgio wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:13 pm

I don't agree that Helion does not have a first wall problem. Any amount of metal evaporation will create instabilities in the plasma itself that might prevent the correct formation and timing of the Helion process.
Additionally, the consequent metal sputtering inside the machine might destabilize (and possibly completely prevent) any successive shot.
By the time the plasma hits the walls, the shot is already over and then the chamber is fully evacuated again.
Last edited by Skipjack on Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mvanwink5
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by mvanwink5 »

By the time the plasma hits the walls, the shot is already over and then the chamber is fully evacuated again.
Does the plasma ever hit the wall? Diverter life is not perfect but it is nonetheless good enough, that was the result seen when Trenta was taken apart after the 18 months of tests and inspected, was it not?

Finally, Helion does not recover plasma energy by a thermal cycle, but instead by magnetic coupling of the plasma with the magnets, in a dynamic braking regenerative cycle where power is returned to the capacitors and available for extraction.

Tokamaks have to extract power thermally, hence the wall issue. General Fusion and Zap use a liquid metal to extract the thermal heat so they do not have the issue Tokamaks have.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Skipjack
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Skipjack »

mvanwink5 wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:30 pm
By the time the plasma hits the walls, the shot is already over and then the chamber is fully evacuated again.
Does the plasma ever hit the wall? Diverter life is not perfect but it is nonetheless good enough, that was the result seen when Trenta was taken apart after the 18 months of tests and inspected, was it not?

Finally, Helion does not recover plasma energy by a thermal cycle, but instead by magnetic coupling of the plasma with the magnets, in a dynamic braking regenerative cycle where power is returned to the capacitors and available for extraction.

Tokamaks have to extract power thermally, hence the wall issue. General Fusion and Zap use a liquid metal to extract the thermal heat so they do not have the issue Tokamaks have.
They have had some really insane axial plasma jets that hit the divertors (which are at the ends). But by then the shot is already over. They want to increase the lifetime of those for the coming machine(s), hence the research. They have made some great improvements with those since then, I hear but they still want them to get better.

mvanwink5
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by mvanwink5 »

They have had some really insane axial plasma jets that hit the divertors (which are at the ends). But by then the shot is already over. They want to increase the lifetime of those for the coming machine(s), hence the research. They have made some great improvements with those since then, I hear but they still want them to get better.
Polaris is also longer; that should also help, no?
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Skipjack
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Skipjack »

mvanwink5 wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:09 pm
They have had some really insane axial plasma jets that hit the divertors (which are at the ends). But by then the shot is already over. They want to increase the lifetime of those for the coming machine(s), hence the research. They have made some great improvements with those since then, I hear but they still want them to get better.
Polaris is also longer; that should also help, no?
I believe it is. Helion is keeping the exact specs of Trenta and the other machines under wraps. I know ballpark numbers but nothing concrete.

Giorgio
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Giorgio »

Skipjack wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:13 pm
By the time the plasma hits the walls, the shot is already over and then the chamber is fully evacuated again.
Yes, this point is true.
Mainly my point is that molybdenum (according the few published papers) is just too weak under turbulence plasma modes to constitute a durable surface to keep the chamber clean during operations.
But again, they might have a magic trick under the hat that solves this issue. I just would love to see more papers from them on this particular issue, but if they indeed have it than it probably constitute a too much valuable IP property to open disclose it.
A society of dogmas is a dead society.

mvanwink5
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by mvanwink5 »

Last time I checked, Helion had 400k views for the Youtube vid, now it has 1.45M views!? Helion is now on the map!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GJtGpvE1sQ&t=25s
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

jrvz
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by jrvz »

How should TAE and Helion be compared?

Both use a field-reversed configuration to confine the plasma. Both envision direct energy conversion. They have similar funding.

Helion plans on fusing D-He3 and D-D (to produce the He3). They've achieved a higher temperature (100 million C) and plan to demonstrate net energy gain by 2024.

TAE has quite a few collaborators, including substantial support from Google. They are aiming for p-B11 fusion (which has more plentiful fuel but with much more difficult confinement requirements), but I've read they might consider D-He3 as an interim step. They've achieved 50 million C, and plan to demonstrate net energy gain by 2025.

So, maybe they're about even?
- Jim Van Zandt

Skipjack
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Skipjack »

jrvz wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:00 am
How should TAE and Helion be compared?

Both use a field-reversed configuration to confine the plasma. Both envision direct energy conversion. They have similar funding.

Helion plans on fusing D-He3 and D-D (to produce the He3). They've achieved a higher temperature (100 million C) and plan to demonstrate net energy gain by 2024.

TAE has quite a few collaborators, including substantial support from Google. They are aiming for p-B11 fusion (which has more plentiful fuel but with much more difficult confinement requirements), but I've read they might consider D-He3 as an interim step. They've achieved 50 million C, and plan to demonstrate net energy gain by 2025.

So, maybe they're about even?
Very different machines. I think one could say that Tokamak Energy's ST40 is more in common with ITER than TAE has with Helion.
The only similarities are that TAE is also colliding two FRCs to form a bigger, hotter and more stable one. That tech is actually courtesy of John Slough (Helion CSO, but now retired), btw.
The major differences happen after that. Unlike Helion's pulsed magnetoinertial approach, TAE is more of a traditional magnetic confinement. They intend to keep the merged FRC stable for a very long time. That requires massive neutral beam injectors and a giant machine of at least 80 meters in length (for PB11, anyway). You can sort of compare their system to a leaky bucket that they have to constantly refill with a firehose...
They want to do direct conversion eventually, but currently have no solid plan for how to do it. So they will use the regular steam plant at first.
Considering how much more funding they have had than Helion, I would say they have certainly fallen behind. I have some doubts about the viability, especially economic viability of their concept, even though I wish them luck (as I am rooting for all fusion teams).

Skipjack
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Skipjack »

New Helion Newsletter is out:
After a lot of outstanding progress, I wanted to recognize the tremendous amount of work our team has made toward getting Polaris built and operational. The last few months have paved the way for several important assemblies to be completed prior to the end of this year. Our production team is constructing new builds daily, our engineering team is testing on the floor, and our machine shop is milling new parts for Polaris. Some big things are beginning to come together:

Our new machine shop, Carina, is up and running. Outfitted with six mills (plus two more arriving next week), Carina will drastically improve our manufacturing capabilities and speed up our assembly timelines. First parts are under way!
The Polaris compression coil forgings are beginning to arrive and are being cut in Carina now. Once machined, these will be our biggest electromagnetic coils yet.
Our test engineers validated a new gas injection system for our Polaris Formation Test (shown above). This gas injection system will inform the final gas injection design for Polaris and our following commercial devices.
We announced our support to Senators Carper and Capito for their call to implement a right-sized regulatory framework for fusion in the United States. I’m excited by the progress being made at the federal level that enables fusion to be safely and rapidly deployed.
Helion was featured in a video by Electric Future that now has close to 2 million views. Watch to learn more about our approach and see some of the Antares facility as it was coming together in late May.

A huge shout out to our engineers, technicians, and machinists as they’ve been working hard to get things done and build stuff that works. If you’re interested in joining the Helion team, now is a great time.
HelionNewsLetterOctoberPicture.JPG
HelionNewsLetterOctoberPicture.JPG (108.83 KiB) Viewed 1951 times

Skipjack
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Skipjack »

David Kirley's presentation at the SOS climate summit today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElUR52bhwxo

Not a whole lot of new information, but still interesting to listen into.

Skipjack
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Skipjack »

Interesting panel on fusion regulation at the recent Fusion 22 event in the UK, featuring Sashin Desai of Helion Energy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF_VIWR ... C&index=11

Carl White
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Carl White »

:D Happy Halloween

Image

Skipjack
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Re: Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

Post by Skipjack »

Continuing the discussion here as it is off topic for the ZAP- thread.
Original post here:
viewtopic.php?p=134167#p134167
Giorgio wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:14 am
Their blanket diameter is 3 meter, so also the breeding and separation of the newly bred Tritium is not a concern as we have plenty of literature on both these points since the 90's.
3 meters is the total diameter of their machine (excluding that new outer shielding construction). So the liquid blanket is maybe 1.25 meters in thickness. Once possible concern could be evaporation of that liquid blanket material and subsequent contamination of the plasma. But then I guess it is not that bad, since they can evacuate the chamber after every shot (so does Helion).
Giorgio wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:14 am
Different will be the situation for Helion that will use a solid blanket where the Tritium migration processes is dependent from quite a large number of variables. There is lot of literature with mixed results as small changes in operating parameters can swing conversion efficiency quite a lot.
That is my concern for them.
Helion does not use a Lithium blanket at all... At least they don't plan to do so in the first power plant designs. They will just rely on the He3 and T from D-D reactions. No Lithium blanket for extra Tritium breeding.
Giorgio wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:14 am
I am happy that I am not he only one that sees it as an issue, and I hope we are all wrong about it, but I still lack the data to change idea on this point.
The disbelief of people outside of the company is not really an issue for Helion's design. Personally, I do not understand all that skepticism, neither does David Kirtley. It is a very simple principle. The only problem was the electronics for controls but that was solved for Helion by others. E.g., some components were originally developed for regenerative braking in electric cars. I think some were also developed for wind turbines, but I might be remembering this wrong.
Giorgio wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:14 am
Even pulsed machine have a steady state.That is the state when the value of all the internal variables reach an equilibrium due to the continuous energy fluxes from the sequence of pulses. Think of it like the "warm up" phase of an internal combustion engine. The difference in behavior from the cold engine to the steady state (equilibrium of all Variables) can be quite big, and the same apply to Helion and ZAP.
If I am not misinterpreting what you are saying, then sort of agree with that. Helion has gained a lot of experience with the issue of "the first shot is different from the tenth and that one is different from the 10 thousands shot" (paraphrasing David Kirtley here). The machines have a sort of a "warm up phase" after initial commission and there will likely also be one during a sequence of shots.

The good news is that with a higher pulse rate in Polaris, they can get to that ten-thousands shot within 3 hours. Then they can ramp the machine up and down every 3 hours for months and learn how that works. For the power plant design, they likely have to do it all over again though, because those machines will be slightly bigger and have slightly different parameters than Polaris. But then for those power plants it will only take some 17 minutes. The same is true for ZAP with their power plant design (both theirs and Helion's use the same pulse rate).
Giorgio wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:14 am
In Helion all the major components are inside the machine and are participant/subjected to the changes of the system as it evolves.
Not sure you can say it like that. Helion's components are all outside the first wall or located pretty far away from the interaction chamber. That is actually one of the beauties about Helions design. That said, ZAP's design has less components and is overall simpler.
Again, interesting times we live in.

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