Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

[mvanwink5]

I can’t understand why Elon Musk talks about Tokamak first wall heat problem as representative of Fusion (latest pod cast, at the end, around 1hr25min), when Helion Energy converts plasma power via magnetic dynamics. If someone is going to speak on a subject as important as Fusion for energy, at least be somewhat informed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6_VfR-CyuM

[baking]

I can’t understand why Elon Musk talks about Tokamak first wall heat problem as representative of Fusion (latest pod cast, at the end, around 1hr25min), when Helion Energy converts plasma power via magnetic dynamics. If someone is going to speak on a subject as important as Fusion for energy, at least be somewhat informed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6_VfR-CyuM

You listened to all that nonsense, and that is what you had a problem with? First off, he has the scaling wrong. You double the size of the tokamak and you get eight times the volume, so eight times the fusion power, but only four times the area of the first wall, so making the tokamak bigger makes the heat problem worse, not better.

Also, he is in a lawsuit against OpenAI, so he's not going to give any credence to Helion, or even mention it.

But he and Sam Altman both believe in Dyson Spheres even though they are a literal physics joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLzEX1TPBFM

Bonus Elon: "Let's just say I'm not going to build a robot army if I can be easily kicked out by activist investors, no way."

[mvanwink5]

EM made the point that Tokamak can ‘work’ by simple scaling, not wrong, but the issue is Tokamak practicality, & EM points it out by citing it has a wall challenge. My point is that the wall problem is Tokamak’s problem not Fusion’s problem. It's a simple logic error.

Yes, it's not the only logic error EM made & my intent was not to exhaustively analyze what he said, but none of the ‘group’ called him on such a simple logic error.

Sam Altman cannot be the only reason to discount Fusion as there are many other 'non Altman’ Fusion projects that do not have a first wall problem. So, it made no logical sense to me even on that visceral level. Moreover, why push an obviously illogical argument against all Fusion Projects?

Anyway, at some point near term, the debate about Commercial Fusion will end & it really won’t matter then.

[mvanwink5]

baking,
Thank you for that YT link, it was a hilarious deconstruction of ‘Dyson Spheres’ & further, I had never heard that Dyson intended it to be a joke (even to me it was an absurd idea, could not understand why Dyson would write about it, but now it makes sense). Because ‘Dyson Spheres’ were
absurd, I never investigated them; glad someone YT’d about it.

The issue is people that actually make pigs that fly get listened to when they say they will make elephants that fly, whales that fly, men have babies, & Communism can ‘work.’ Just say, ‘First Principles’, then seriously say, 'X, Y, Z’ absurdities.

[Skipjack]

EM made the point that Tokamak can ‘work’ by simple scaling, not wrong, but the issue is Tokamak practicality, & EM points it out by citing it has a wall challenge. My point is that the wall problem is Tokamak’s problem not Fusion’s problem. It's a simple logic error.

Yes, it's not the only logic error EM made & my intent was not to exhaustively analyze what he said, but none of the ‘group’ called him on such a simple logic error.

Sam Altman cannot be the only reason to discount Fusion as there are many other 'non Altman’ Fusion projects that do not have a first wall problem. So, it made no logical sense to me even on that visceral level. Moreover, why push an obviously illogical argument against all Fusion Projects?

Anyway, at some point near term, the debate about Commercial Fusion will end & it really won’t matter then.

Elon Musk has always been skeptical of fusion. That is why he went all on on solar with Solar City (now part of Tesla). That also makes him biased because fusion would compete with his business.

[mvanwink5]

That also makes him biased because fusion would compete with his business.

I can understand for space because of simplicity, but time is running out fast for arguments that it makes sense on Earth, Moon, or Mars (conversion efficiency is the key, not a thermal cycle with huge heat rejection %). Once Helion dials in their Fusion Plant, roll out will be fast due to their concurrent work on building a manufacturing operation.

Denial of reality is bad business.

[TallDave]

I can’t understand why Elon Musk talks about Tokamak first wall heat problem as representative of Fusion (latest pod cast, at the end, around 1hr25min), when Helion Energy converts plasma power via magnetic dynamics.

As Kirtley pointed out just the other day, Elon is correct! In fact, Helion's reactor design is tightly constrained by the first wall limitations (as some of us calculated a couple years back). This is one reason why their reactors are limited to tens of MWe (at least for now).

A sub-ms, non-igniting pulse solves a lot of problems (it is truly an elegant design) but the MWe power output is dependent on the utilization factor, i.e. the proportion of time the machine is actually fusing, which even in a next-generation post-Orion reactor is probably never going to exceed 10%. So the fusion power needs to be least at least 10x the MWe. Fortunately Helion is capturing around 80% of that power magnetically, but transport losses and neutrons for D-He3 are optimistically around 40% of the fusion power, based on Fig 15.

Of course spin polarization puts a new spin (sorry!) on this, and might increase the recovery ratio to >90% if it works in their machines, as well as reducing first-wall neutrons. So they might get over 100MWe someday. Perhaps even at machine energies well below 20KeV, meaning they could only need 15T or less -- not quite off the shelf but comparable to Polaris.

My suspicion is they are currently building up T/He stocks doing D-D runs at 10KeV (it peaks there). They took shipment of T a while ago and extracting decayed He3 is apparently dead simple, so they should have some by now (they could also have just bought some He3 but I haven't heard that they've done that). But available He3 is probably the limiting factor for D-He3 runs in Polaris? Possibly they want to demonstrate their vaunted fuel cycle. I would imagine they need substantial reconfiguration before switching isotopes (although I don't know for sure) given the different reactivity peaks.

I do think Elon is going to be intrigued by the ridiculous ISP of a Helion D-He3 50MWe drive by 2027 or so. Anyways, we need to solve the Elon/Sam feud by putting a fusion reactor on Mars

[TallDave]

Just to wrap my head around the cost of D-He3 reactions in initial testing, i tried some reverse-engineered back of the envelope calculations for Orion (or maybe more likely Polaris), assuming 100MJ of harvestable ⁴He (alpha particle) energy, but 50% harvest efficiency factor due to all loses (e.g., non-collisions, electromagnetic recapture, etc.) , and 1 Hz pulse rate:

D + ³He → ⁴He + p, with 80% energy in p (due to mass) and 20% from ⁴He
With e=mc2, that's 3.69 MeV per ⁴He:
³He = 3.016 g/mol divided by 6.022 × 10²³ atoms/mol. = 5.009 × 10⁻²⁴ g. 3.69 MeV per ³He
and 1 MeV = 1.602 × 10⁻¹³ J
So to yield 100MJ ⁴He per pulse requires 1.7 × 10¹⁴ ³He reactions.
With the 50% all-cause energy harvest loss, that's 50MJ, and 1 pulse per sec dials in at 50MW, the design goal for Orion.
That means ³He mass = (3.4. × 10²⁰ atoms) × (5.0 × 10⁻²⁴ g/atom) = 1770 μg of He3 per pulse * 3600 pulses per hour at 1Hz = 6.37 g/hr ³He.
At $20,000 /gram ³He, that's about $127,000 per hour for 50MW machine at 1 Hz.
...
Obviously, this is not cost effective at that high ³He cost, as 8 hours of 50MW produced from a natural gas fired plant is about $12K.

Thanks, I came up with a similar number. However I have not yet tried to calculate how much He3 they would harvest from the first dedicated D-D machine (something like 10g/hr?). Given that T is apparently only irregularly produced, they could potentially sell both the T and He3 until prices drop to the point it's economical to burn the He3. That might not take very long, as demand is limited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium#P ... on_history

But I've also seen a couple reports claiming He3 has been found in some terrestrial helium deposits in sufficient ratios to make mining possible at less than $100/g (it was allegedly as low as $200/g not that long ago, small-batch cryonic distillation around 2-3K seems to be the traditional refining method but newer techniques might be employed if there is a sufficient source of permanent demand). So we'll see! Perhaps D-D breeding of He3 won't be necessary for a long time yet.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... esota.html

[Skipjack]

Guys! He3 is not that big of a problem. You can buy it on the free market at less cost than the Tritium. IIRC, Helion already has the He3 they need for their campaign.
That said, Polaris is still meant to demonstrate He3 production (and all that goes with it) at scale.

[mvanwink5]

From Helion’s latest update

Polaris testing accelerates
We’re conducting fusion operations daily in Everett. Right now, the team is refining our test parameters and fine-tuning the system to maximize performance. With our plasma, neutron, and electrical diagnostics suites, we are measuring machine performance and making real-time adjustments to increase the amount of fusion energy we can recover from the system.

For instance, one area of focus is on our electrical diagnostics suite. At peak power, we’re running more than 100 gigawatts through our systems in less than a microsecond. As we’ve stepped up our operating voltages, we’ve been upgrading components to control and monitor every high-powered pulse. More to come!

It's a mistake to think Helion’s challenge is Fusion, the electrical engineering feats are new, staggering,

we’re running more than 100 gigawatts through our systems in less than a microsecond

Control, timing, synchronous discharge from the capacitors is mind blowing, it's not just a matter of flipping a switch.

[TallDave]

Guys! He3 is not that big of a problem. You can buy it on the free market at less cost than the Tritium. IIRC, Helion already has the He3 they need for their campaign.
That said, Polaris is still meant to demonstrate He3 production (and all that goes with it) at scale.

sure, but as pointed out above, at current market prices it would make more commercial sense to sell any produced He3 than to burn it

your power costs are still way ahead of the forthcoming ARC cost debacle (to say nothing of ITER) but you aren't competitive with commercial alternatives until He3 is selling at $1000/g or less (which, I hasten to add, I do believe could happen near Orion's 2028 start date)

teaching the plasma physicists cost accounting is almost as difficult as teaching the cost accountants plasma physics

but best case for Helion is that Pulsar's 15% He3 terrestrial helium deposit might be refinable to fuse-able purities in relatively few steps, such that it drives the cost down to something below $100/g, then the fuel situation is a lot more like LWRs where you can almost ignore the fuel costs because the capital costs are so much larger (the power density is certainly there) and then Helion doesn't even need the D-D breeders anytime soon

[Skipjack]

Full Helion Newsletter:

Polaris is undergoing fusion operations daily at our headquarters in Everett, WA, while we continue to build the world’s first fusion power plant in Malaga, WA. Over the past few months, our team has been tackling new challenges – all to optimize fusion performance and to forge our path to bring fusion to the world.

A few recent highlights worth sharing:

Polaris testing accelerates

We’re conducting fusion operations daily in Everett. Right now, the team is refining our test parameters and fine-tuning the system to maximize performance. With our plasma, neutron, and electrical diagnostics suites, we are measuring machine performance and making real-time adjustments to increase the amount of fusion energy we can recover from the system.

For instance, one area of focus is on our electrical diagnostics suite. At peak power, we’re running more than 100 gigawatts through our systems in less than a microsecond. As we’ve stepped up our operating voltages, we’ve been upgrading components to control and monitor every high-powered pulse. More to come!


Securing permits and building onsite at Orion

We received approval from Chelan County for a Conditional Use Permit to begin the next phase of construction on Orion. Following SEPA approval earlier this year, this permit authorizes construction of the generator building. Securing both environmental and conditional use approvals in just five months keeps Orion on track for its 2028 target and brings us one step closer to delivering fusion power to the grid!


Landing new equipment at our machine shop

Our machine shop is growing! We’re bringing even more high-precision equipment online, including: a Haas VF-7SS, a Haas UMC 1250, a Trumpf TruBend 7050, a Makino A61NX, a Star SR-38 Type B Lathe, and a DN Solutions Puma 2600 SYB II. These systems are already helping us machine tighter-tolerance parts for our next-generation pulsed power units and electromagnet assemblies, shortening iteration cycles and improving build quality across the board.


45x Tax credit expanded for fusion energy

The Fusion Advanced Manufacturing Parity Act was introduced in the House and Senate, expanding the Inflation Reduction Act’s 45X production credit to include fusion energy components. The bill creates a 25% credit for fusion technologies, ensuring that the jobs, materials, and supply chains that power this new industry are built in the U.S. I’m excited to see how this passage strengthens America’s position to lead in fusion manufacturing and energy independence!


Investing $17M into future fusion technology development

We expanded our external research funding program, HERCULES, which will help us scale our power plant deployment beyond Orion. With more than $17M in funding, we will work with research labs, industry partners, and universities to solve longer-term challenges related to materials, nuclear engineering, diagnostics, and more.

Proposals are now being accepted, with priority given to submissions received by Jan. 5, 2026. Interested applicants can apply here.



The future we’re building isn’t far off; it’s taking shape right now. There’s never been a better time to work in fusion, and if you want to be part of it, we’re always hiring!

David
Co-founder & CEO

[Skipjack]

sure, but as pointed out above, at current market prices it would make more commercial sense to sell any produced He3 than to burn it

Well, this is for experiments right now. Polaris is meant to demonstrate both: Direct electricity from fusion and the production of He3 and Tritium in a way that it can be used for fuel (e.g. He3 separated from He4). But, I presume the numbers are relatively small for all of that. Commercial plants will then do all of that a commercial relevant numbers.

[TallDave]

Well, this is for experiments right now. Polaris is meant to demonstrate both: Direct electricity from fusion and the production of He3 and Tritium in a way that it can be used for fuel (e.g. He3 separated from He4). But, I presume the numbers are relatively small for all of that. Commercial plants will then do all of that a commercial relevant numbers.

agreed, for Polaris it only matters they have enough to prove out the technical concepts experimentally, even if the power costs ten times what commercial power does

Pulsar does seem to lining itself up as a potential low-cost He3 provider, as they are acquiring more property nearby, hopefully they are talking to Helion https://www.mesabitribune.com/news/loca ... 7d510.html

obviously Helion does have their own He3 production plans but it's even better for them if they can buy it cheaper than they could make it

[usesbiggerwords]

45x Tax credit expanded for fusion energy

The Fusion Advanced Manufacturing Parity Act was introduced in the House and Senate, expanding the Inflation Reduction Act’s 45X production credit to include fusion energy components. The bill creates a 25% credit for fusion technologies, ensuring that the jobs, materials, and supply chains that power this new industry are built in the U.S. I’m excited to see how this passage strengthens America’s position to lead in fusion manufacturing and energy independence!

This stinks of the solar and wind subsidies, and we all know how that went. Fusion has to be commercially viable with handouts from Big Brother. I get we're not on a level playing field with China, since the CCP subsidizes everything, but where's the line?