Tri Alpha Gets $50 million

[paulmarch]

Has anybody on this list seen EMC2's WB-7 Final report? I understand that it has some very interesting data that may clarify where EMC2 and the Navy are heading with the new WB-8 reactor.

[TallDave]

Something to keep in mind -- if any fusion effort succeeds, all fusion efforts should benefit. The first technical success in a technology is very often not the one that ends up being most useful or commercially successful, so a lot more VC money could start flowing if economic fusion power production loses the "pipe dream" stigma.

Paul -- I don't think that's public. I did run across this --

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=1 ... opic=16284

which I think may be lifted from the Cosmic Blog article.

[Betruger]

That's definitely text from old news/public releases.

[icarus]

Something to keep in mind -- if any fusion effort succeeds, all fusion efforts should benefit. The first technical success in a technology is very often not the one that ends up being most useful or commercially successful, so a lot more VC money could start flowing if economic fusion power production loses the "pipe dream" stigma.

Agreed. The easy govt. money and over-promising tokomak work that created the 'pipe dream boondoggle' stigma around fusion is entirely merited from the track record.

If EMC2 has something they should be able to get private money and bury their data in good conscience forever, if they wish. Could get the whole ball rolling, as you say.

It's not whether you won but how you played the game that goes into the grave with you.

[paulmarch]

Something to keep in mind -- if any fusion effort succeeds, all fusion efforts should benefit. The first technical success in a technology is very often not the one that ends up being most useful or commercially successful, so a lot more VC money could start flowing if economic fusion power production loses the "pipe dream" stigma.

Paul -- I don't think that's public. I did run across this --

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=1 ... opic=16284

which I think may be lifted from the Cosmic Blog article.

Dave:

Too bad that the WB-7 data set is still being sequestered. Guess we will have to wait for the reuslts from the WB-8 tests to leak out to the masses in another year...

Speaking of such, does anyone know much about Dr. George Miley's IEC/Fuser plasma thruster based on the IEC "Jet Mode"? How does one drive the fusor from its "Star Mode" into its "Jet mode" where only one ion stream is being expressed?? If one where using the Polywell configuration, I think it would be easy enough to create this asymmetrical jet mode if one were to just weaken one of the B-field coil's B-field as compared to the other five B-field coils so that the beta pinch at that face would open up a bit more than the others.

[Tom Ligon]

Paul,

I just finished repairing all the damage to my fusor created by the e-beam ejected from the center. I had several cuts in the outer grid wires. The e-beam will also create hot-spots on the outer walls, and mine used to like to do so uncomfortably close to the front window. I've added an extra piece of glass to protect it.

Typical hobby fusors apparently will produce a flood and/or beam of electrons counter to the ion current.

Observing a fusor operate from high pressure down to low is both pretty and educational. At the high end of the Paschen curve the glow is pure sheath around the inner grid wires. As pressure drops, the sheath expands until it is a lumpy shell around the inner grid. Continuing to take the pressure down typically results in one or more "bugle jets" emerging from the center of grid openings. In a well-built fusor these jump from opening to opening ... in assymetrical units they have a preferred opening.

The bugle jets (fountains shaped like the flared end of a bugle) are the same color as the sheaths, and are presumed to be a typical plasma, the color predominantly from recombination of ions and electrons. However, as you take the pressure down further the bugle becomes fainter and a blue stream of electrons is seen down its center axis, extending to the walls of the machine. You can verify that it is an e-beam by applying a magnetic field, which can turn the beam back on itself.

An enclosed fusor is balanced net charge. To make an ion thruster work you also need balanced net charge, so the ion beam must be accompanied by an electron beam. It would be interesting to build a fusor in a very large tank to try it, but I think the bugle jet is an electron/ion beam that balances out the net charge operation of the fusor. Most likely it disposes of electrons produced by ionizing neutral gas inside the inner grid.

[chrismb]

How does one drive the fusor from its "Star Mode" into its "Jet mode" where only one ion stream is being expressed?? If one where using the Polywell configuration, I think it would be easy enough to create this asymmetrical jet mode

Paul.

These visible parts of the 'phenomena' are just wasted, low value energy. If you can visibly see something, it is just remnants of left-over thermalising collisions.

The *real* useful energy is in the stuff you can't see! You need to have X-ray specs to see that stuff.

*Real* fusion is isotropic, and if you were to get neutrons or fast particles that are not isotropic then it indicates it's not fusion, and if it's not fusion then there is no extra energy being made use of, above what you are putting in.

[Torulf2]

In N.Korea there are only a few Internet connections. One of them is for the leader is Kim Jong-il . They must have collect data from the internet, probable even on this site. This makes me suspect one of us is Kim Jong-il .

[Giorgio]

In N.Korea there are only a few Internet connections. One of them is for the leader is Kim Jong-il . They must have collect data from the internet, probable even on this site. This makes me suspect one of us is Kim Jong-il .

So.... who tells us that you aren't?

[D Tibbets]

How does one drive the fusor from its "Star Mode" into its "Jet mode" where only one ion stream is being expressed?? If one where using the Polywell configuration, I think it would be easy enough to create this asymmetrical jet mode

Paul.

These visible parts of the 'phenomena' are just wasted, low value energy. If you can visibly see something, it is just remnants of left-over thermalising collisions. ...

All true. But Miley's IEC thruster is not a fusion machine. My understanding is that it takes external power to produce an electron beam much as T Ligon described. I'm not sure how the ions interact, but there would be a strong tendency for the ions to concentrate on the electron beam, so I do not think much else would be needed to produce a directed ion flow*. I think Miley's argument was that with power from solar panels or perhaps a fission reactor, this approach might have benefits over arc jets, and ion engines for satellite station keeping. More fuel efficient than arc jets and more power (thrust) than ion engines.

*As this IEC device is operating essentially with a neutral plasma, the electron beam could be considered the same as cusp flows and it would be ambipolar. This is in contrast to the non neutral plasma in a Polywell which is supposed to allow for non ambipolar cusp flows. At least that is my interpretation.

Dan Tibbets

[TallDave]

Paul,

Yes, very sad for us. I'd kill for some WB-8 data.

If one where using the Polywell configuration, I think it would be easy enough to create this asymmetrical jet mode if one were to just weaken one of the B-field coil's B-field as compared to the other five B-field coils so that the beta pinch at that face would open up a bit more than the others.

I don't think you'd get enough fusion per input power that way, as the big problem is confinement. You might be able to funnel your charged fusion products out as thrust, though, and tap them for internal power as needed. Simon or someone at NASA has probably done some BOE calculations on something like that.

[DeltaV]

Since the p-B11 fusion product alphas are expected to make about 1000 passes before exiting the magrid, coaxing most of them out through one weakened coil seems feasible.

[paulmarch]

Since the p-B11 fusion product alphas are expected to make about 1000 passes before exiting the magrid, coaxing most of them out through one weakened coil seems feasible.

It's my understanding that it's the hydrogen and boron-11 fusion fuel ions and NOT the He4 fusion product ions that are the ions that make the 1,000 semi-circular pases into and out of the core before thermalizing. This is due to the fact that the potential well in a working Polywell reactor is set by the electrostatic potential between the reactor's six B-field coil's outer electrodes and the metallic vacuum chamber walls, which is on the order of 100 to 200kV for a 200 MWe output reactor burning p-B11.

When the He4 fusion ions come out of the reactor core, they don't stick around because their ~3.45MeV kinetic energy is over 20 times larger than the restraining electrostatic well. They are steered however by the reactor's Beta=1 B-field to exit predominately out of the six face and eight corner B-field cusps. If one could devise a secondary containment B-field system that would then steer all 14 of these radial He4 ion output channels into the same direction, one would then have the makings of a very powerful unidirectional plasma rocket. Of course one would have to then mix dilutent propellant in with this near relativistic ion stream to raise the output thrust to reasonable levels needed for the creation of Heinlein's 1.0 gee Torchships...

BTW, TriAlpha's FRC two B-field cusp reactor arrangement is much more topologically ammenable to making a straight plasma rocket as compared to the Polywell, by just using one He4 beam for making electrical power and the other beam for the plasma rocket. However, I can find even less information about what Rostoker and crew really have or don't have in the way of progress as compared to Rick Nebel's EMC2 group. It's rather frustrating to say the least, but I feel their is something interesting afoot in several aneutronic fusion R&D camps now, including Eric Lerner's DPF venue...

[paulmarch]

Paul,

Yes, very sad for us. I'd kill for some WB-8 data.

If one where using the Polywell configuration, I think it would be easy enough to create this asymmetrical jet mode if one were to just weaken one of the B-field coil's B-field as compared to the other five B-field coils so that the beta pinch at that face would open up a bit more than the others.

I don't think you'd get enough fusion per input power that way, as the big problem is confinement. You might be able to funnel your charged fusion products out as thrust, though, and tap them for internal power as needed. Simon or someone at NASA has probably done some BOE calculations on something like that.

Dave:

Well, I'd like to see the WB-7 final report first, since the first of the WB-8 data probably won't be in the bag for another six to twelve months. And that's assuming the Navy keeps funding EMC2 at the promised rates in their last contract.

As to whether we can use the Polywell for a direct plasma rocket by bleeding off a certain percentage of the He4 fusion ions needed to create a plasma rocket, IMO it will boil down to whether the Polywell fusion power gain Q of the as-built reactor is over ~5. If the Polywell can manage a Q greater than say 6 or 7, I bet it will be doable if the steering B-fields for all those 14 He4 ion jets can be optimized.