10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[tomclarke]

@tomclark,

This does not compute. Why should QMC be magnetic in nature? And why should it be more possible at higher energies? That is the opposite of what is normally the case. Give me some proposed electron wave functions, or spin states, and we will discuss.

To form BEC from electrons you need to form Cooper pairs, but these are easily disturbed through interactions with other parts of system and therefore need very low temperatures.

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/people/fa ... drogen.pdf


Generalized Theory of Bose-Einstein Condensation Nuclear Fusion for Hydrogen-Metal System

Professor Yeong E. Kim

Department of Physics

Purdue University

West Lafayette, Indiana 47907, USA

June 18, 2011

Here is a theory of coherent matter acting in the Rossi process (Generalized theory of Bose-Einstein condensation nuclear fusion (BECNF)) that is composed of entangled hydrogen nuclei and nickel atoms.

Kim also lays out all the nuclear reactions that this coherent system implies…take a look…Tom, what do you think?

I read it when you posted it before, just did not think worth comment:

The mobility of Ni atoms/nuclei (condition (1)) is enhanced by the use of an electric resistance heater to maintain higher temperatures. This may provide a suitable environment in which more of both Ni atoms/nuclei and protons become mobile, thus creating a favorable environment for the case of two species of Bosons (Ni nuclei and composite Bosons of paired two protons). If the velocities of mobile Ni atoms/nuclei under the condition (1) are sufficiently slow, their de-Broglie wavelengths become sufficiently large and may overlap with neighboring two-proton composite Bosons which are also mobile, thus creating Bose-Einstein condensation of two species of Bosons. The generalized BECNF theory can now be applied to these two-species of Bosons and provides a mechanism for the suppression/cancellation of the Coulomb barrier, as shown in [4].

He wants Ni nuclei to form a plasma (not held in place by electrostatic bonds as is normally the case in a solid or liquid).

He then wants protons to form a plasma, but with pairs of protons bonded together by some unspecified mechanism to form bosons.

Just think what this means. The temperature of the protons must be high as that of the Ni nuclei, unless they are somehow kept away from thermal equilibrium. yet pairs of H+ must interact so strongly that they stay coherent in spite of the high temp electrostatic interactions with the rest of the plasma....

Now coherent electrons is possible, though not at these temps in a plasma. Coherent protons is a very different kettle of fish because the masses are 2000 X larger.

And that is only one introductory paragraph.

This does not compute is the polite comment.

[cg66]

He says he is working with Los Alamos. Can mean anything. Don't start rejoicing till you hear from LANL...

Apparently LANL (Tom Claytor) has already started replication using Brillouin's docs...
"As for the nature of the experiments at LANL, I [Robert Godes] only learned of them late in the day on Friday July 1 2011 and Tom Claytor was on his way out on a trip. He told me the experiment used 2 meters of .1mm Pd wire and 10A pulses. Started with high purity D and produced "lots of tritium.""

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/07/robert ... louin.html

Thought this was an interesting comment by Godes on Rossi :
"What Rossi is doing is real but IMHO not practically scalable. I don't "know" that he changed from 125 x 10Kw units to 300 4.5Kw units for the 1MW system, but I would guess it was due to process variability. Some of the 10Kw units produced 30-50Kw and others only did 5Kw. He found that smaller units had less variability but now he has to juggle 300 instead of 125."

[tomclarke]

He says he is working with Los Alamos. Can mean anything. Don't start rejoicing till you hear from LANL...

Apparently LANL (Tom Claytor) has already started replication using Brillouin's docs...
"As for the nature of the experiments at LANL, I [Robert Godes] only learned of them late in the day on Friday July 1 2011 and Tom Claytor was on his way out on a trip. He told me the experiment used 2 meters of .1mm Pd wire and 10A pulses. Started with high purity D and produced "lots of tritium.""

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/07/robert ... louin.html

Thought this was an interesting comment by Godes on Rossi :
"What Rossi is doing is real but IMHO not practically scalable. I don't "know" that he changed from 125 x 10Kw units to 300 4.5Kw units for the 1MW system, but I would guess it was due to process variability. Some of the 10Kw units produced 30-50Kw and others only did 5Kw. He found that smaller units had less variability but now he has to juggle 300 instead of 125."

I'll start jumping for joy once we have something other than hearsay.

The problem is that the signs of nuclear reactions we are getting are all ambiguous. Whereas if there were some (not understood) mechanism leading to nuclear reactions it should sometimes be giving very non-ambiguous indications.

I don't like to be uncharitable but if you ask me a lot of this stuff is hope and people who from a distance find the Rossi demo's convincing (which they are until you look closely) and hope to get in on the act.

Anyway, if this is a reputable act of replication (we don't know Claytor's expertise as experimental physicist in this area but doubtless will find out if he publishes) I am all for it. This stuff has had many too many non-replicated and not convincing claims.

Remember all those US children replicating stuff? Well I would trust them more than this - any one of those experiments with positive results will make headlines & probably have better experimental technique than the positive evidence I have seen quoted so far.

But I'll change my view if/when I know more about this LANL person and with whom he's working.

[DancingFool]

I believe that Ni58 will work but not as well as Rossi wants. Also, Ni58 will produce more gamma emitting byproducts than Rossi wants.

Oh, lord. Axil, could you please tell exactly how you know this? From Rossi's press releases and blog? From his detailed experimental logs?

As I said previously, I would optimize the Rossi reactor to burn Ni58 and use tungsten in a closed replaceable reaction chamber module to keep the gamma emitting gamma isotopes contained

You mean, select among a variety of possible nuclear reactions by varying temperature and hydrogen pressure?

but I am not as shrewd as Rossi is.

But a lot more delusional. Or at least a lot more prone to wishful thinking.

Rossi wants to be politically acceptable to all important parties, to avoid criticism from radiophobs, and avoid any possible dealings with the NRC and other similar international agencies like the IAEA.

And with good reason. If I were with the GAEC or the Greek equivalent of DHS and I believed him, I'd shut him down in a heartbeat.
And, for what it's worth, even if the E-Cat works as advertised, it does not fall under the purview of the NRC, so he's not avoiding _them_.

[tomclarke]

http://institute.lanl.gov/ei/LADSS/lect ... laytor.pdf

Claytor is an established resercher. But very far out of his area doing this stuff. Of course, he may be an expert on calorimetry & detecting very small quantities of tritium. Or he may, outside his normal area, overlook trivial contaminants like sources of natural tritium...

Given the low power outputs claimed, and short run times, the T produced as reaction product would have to be very low concentration. Somone else can do the calculations.

[Joseph Chikva]

I believe that Ni58 will work but not as well as Rossi wants. Also, Ni58 will produce more gamma emitting byproducts than Rossi wants.

You believe and I see that you are flying in some dreams.
As:
-You cannot know more than Rossi. And Rossi does not look as person able to discover the novelty. Recall his wh/h. That seemed as maximum that he can.
-And there was not gamma-radiation at all in that youtube presentation. As I remember there Rossi for a long time talked about radiation detector and its producer. Then he said that detector shows only background level.
About what would happen if Rossi's device works and gives net power, I would say you the same to I already said to Kiteman about what needs grandmother for becoming grandfather.

[DancingFool]

As I said previously, I would optimize the Rossi reactor to burn Ni58 and use tungsten in a closed replaceable reaction chamber module to keep the gamma emitting gamma isotopes contained but I am not as shrewd as Rossi is.

Oh yes, and Rossi has quite explicitly addressed the need for an unsealed reaction capsule. Why don't you know this?

[Giorgio]

Other coolants using molten salts have been tested.

The public demos used lab prototypes.
It uses an ultrasonic instrument to measure coolant flow in the closed system and type K thermocouples for temperature.

Their test procedure follows http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GrabowskiKrobustperf.pdf and has been adapted for their "mass calorimeter" embedded as a standard in all their products as well as for calibration and testing procedures.

Funny how they choosed to follow all the correct experimental and measurement procedures when not doing public demos.....

[Betruger]

For the non-pathological skeptics

Are any of them Scotsmen?

[KitemanSA]

Does his conclusion surprise you? He is just saying what I have shown repeatedly... IF the reaction can happen, it releases energy. Adding a proton or neutron to ANYTHING releases energy. (Ok, except for maybe 4He! ).

And if my grandmother would have something
Will become grandfather

Do you disagree with my statement or is it that you just have to be a smart-a$$ about everything?

[Axil]

As I said previously, I would optimize the Rossi reactor to burn Ni58 and use tungsten in a closed replaceable reaction chamber module to keep the gamma emitting gamma isotopes contained but I am not as shrewd as Rossi is.

Oh yes, and Rossi has quite explicitly addressed the need for an unsealed reaction capsule. Why don't you know this?

You are becoming an accomplished Rossi tracker. Since I obviously did not know this, you should have helpfully provided me a reference; after all I have done the same for you.

Thanks in advance.

[D Tibbets]

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/04/how-ca ... actor.html

Here is a post from the nextbigfuture that shows a positive energy production from NI58 to CU63

So each transformation of Ni58 into Cu63 releases 37.36MeV of nuclear energy.

When you go through the calculation, you get positive energy output.

I ran the mass calculations with H = 1.007825032 and all the beta particle included but to no avail there math is correct I got 37.1778MeV the discrepancies being the difference in our mass tables. So despite what they tell you about the curve of binding energy, fusions for elements heavier then Iron can make energy (it surprised me anyway).

Again, the mass defect represents just that, the mass equivalent of a nucleus that is not measured on a scale. That is because it is in the form of energy. The total binding energy in fact. Why people believe that this energy represents some released energy is beyond me. It is a part of the nucleus. The nucleus cannot exist without this incorporated energy- it is the binding energy - a part of the nucleus. A lead rock sitting on the ground doesn't release any more energy than a lithium rock sitting on the ground. The lead rock has a lot more mass in the form of neutrons and protons and electrons, and binding energy, but that means nothing in this static situation. If you apply kinetic energy (an equal shove on both) it will not have any more energy than the light rock. If you divide up the mass in the lead into that represented by neutrons and protons, and mass deficit or binding energy, the total does not change. The binding energy may have increased, but this is a part of the nucleus, not the energy released in the formation. The total binding energy is simply the missing mass or the change in the balance between the defined masses of the particles in isolation and their mass within a nucleus. The mass- energy total does not change, only the ratio.
The binding energy per nucleon is a different matter. This experimentally derived table/ graph is less confusing (for me) if you consider it as the packing fraction, or nuclear density. Ni62 is the most tightly packed due to the interactions between the strong but short range Strong nuclear force, and the relatively weak but long range Electromagnetic repulsive force.
Nuclear physic sometimes uses a liquid model (or gas) to describe things. As you compact/ increase the density of a fluid, the temperature increases (energy is released), as the fliud/ gas expands heat is absorbed. This is the same for nickel62. It is the most dense collection of nucleons possible for this consideration (neutron stars is different physics).

The binding energy of the nucleus of the elements goes up with increased nucleons. The graph retains a positive slope up to the maximum possible size. But, again this only implies that the amount of missing mass as a percentage of the total mass/ energy equivalent goes up. It does not say anything about the system energy (the parent nuclei, the daughter nuclei, and the mass / kinetic energy of other particles or photons). If it did do so, I think we would be creating energy out of nothing.
The packing fraction = nuclear binding energy/ nucleon graph does represent the system balance, and it peaks at Ni62.



Dan Tibbets

[DancingFool]

Oh yes, and Rossi has quite explicitly addressed the need for an unsealed reaction capsule. Why don't you know this?

You are becoming an accomplished Rossi tracker. Since I obviously did not know this, you should have helpfully provided me a reference; after all I have done the same for you.

Thanks in advance.

You're welcome.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ment-33040

Andrea Rossi
April 14th, 2011 at 4:22 PM
Dear Mr Bjorn Genborg:
1- no, because we stop tha valve that gives hydrogen, so that the reaction is cut in few minutes. It has been tested.
2- Not shown
Warm regards,
A.R.

But that doesn't really answer my question. Why don't you know this stuff? Depending on how you were raised, God (or the devil) is in the details. You're the one who actually believes his codswallop, so one might think that you would pay attention to those details. I agree that paying attention to what Rossi says is dangerous to continued belief in his claims, but really, that's why I keep bringing these things up.

And as for "becoming an accomplished Rossi tracker", what I'm mostly doing is reading his blog and remembering what I read. I've tracked down a few interviews, and I pay attention to what Rossi and Focardi have said. Do you truly find this so unusual?

[Axil]

Oh yes, and Rossi has quite explicitly addressed the need for an unsealed reaction capsule. Why don't you know this?

You are becoming an accomplished Rossi tracker. Since I obviously did not know this, you should have helpfully provided me a reference; after all I have done the same for you.

Thanks in advance.

You're welcome.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ment-33040

Andrea Rossi
April 14th, 2011 at 4:22 PM
Dear Mr Bjorn Genborg:
1- no, because we stop tha valve that gives hydrogen, so that the reaction is cut in few minutes. It has been tested.
2- Not shown
Warm regards,
A.R.

But that doesn't really answer my question. Why don't you know this stuff? Depending on how you were raised, God (or the devil) is in the details. You're the one who actually believes his codswallop, so one might think that you would pay attention to those details. I agree that paying attention to what Rossi says is dangerous to continued belief in his claims, but really, that's why I keep bringing these things up.

And as for "becoming an accomplished Rossi tracker", what I'm mostly doing is reading his blog and remembering what I read. I've tracked down a few interviews, and I pay attention to what Rossi and Focardi have said. Do you truly find this so unusual?

I knew that Rossi uses temperature and/or hydrogen pressure to control his reaction.


A sealed reaction vessel is possible and probably required for the home unit.

Such an approach would be possible and even desirable if a thermostatically controlled pressure relief valve automatically opens at dangerous temperatures and pressures to vent hydrogen to abort operations.


A failsafe solution like this would protect against a power failure that disables the control box that would normally control the hydrogen flow.


Did Rossi address power failure issue?


By the way, I will try even harder to live up to your high expectations of me. So sorry, please forgive me for any of my past failing, please look beyond my faults, because comity makes discourse so much more pleasurable for everybody concerned, the posters and the readers.


However, hidden agendas, jealousy, phobias, financial interests and the like (the seven cardinal sins ...but lust and gluttony are not at issue here) usually make comity, tolerant consideration and interested critique for the ideas of others impossible.

[Joseph Chikva]

Do you disagree with my statement or is it that you just have to be a smart-a$$ about everything?

"If"
The purpose of experiment/demo or how you want to call that is to exclude any "if".
But Rossi's non-correct technique does not allow to do it.
But on the contrary. The questions arise and arise.

Also doubts appear that the person writing "wh/h" can correctly interpret results.
He speaks that without catalyst no reaction between nickel and hydrogen goes.
He has found out the substance catalyzing nuclear processes without corresponding skill? I am not very smart but did not hear about such type of catalysts earlier.

I would believe that not well trained man can invent some device. Example – Mikhail Kalashnikov. But that device works on well known principles and only design is novelty.
And what we see in Rossi’s case?