10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)
From what I understand it was Rossi who did not want to run the self sustained experiment for longer than 30 minutes. He claims that he has to turn on the heating element every 30 minutes for 10 minutes to prevent the thing from getting unstable. I dont quite understand that. The temperature clearly dropped once the power was shut off and it did not look like it would rise again by itself or go out of control. This is one of those things are very ominous to me.
In the demo video I watched:Crawdaddy wrote:The possibility of delusion is increasingly remote.If this is delusion, it seems to need to be MASS delusion. Still possible, but less likely.
In this test the temperature T2 increases after the power is shut off. In order to be a delusion This would require a drastic decrease in the flow rate that occurred by chance just at that moment. Furthermore since the decrease in temperature is not exponential after shut off the flow rate of the water would have to continue to decrease by chance after the power was shut off.
Each experiment requires a different "just so story" in order to be explained as delusion.
The only rational explanation for the e-cat is fraud or legitimacy. This demo didn't change that fact.
T1 = 129.1 deg. @ 3:42 in film - with power.
T2 = 121.8 @ 6:10 in film - without power
That is 7.3 degree drop, not an increase.
Sorry let me clarify. In the report linked in the article http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... +%28pdf%29 they initially reported that at 22:35 of the experiment, when they switched off the power, the reactor temp was 123C. They have since corrected that figure to 133C.In the demo video I watched:
T1 = 129.1 deg. @ 3:42 in film - with power.
T2 = 121.8 @ 6:10 in film - without power
That is 7.3 degree drop, not an increase.
Never the less the temperature reported at 22:40 is 133.7C, a rise of 0.7C after the power was turned off.
If the flow rate of the pump didn't change, there is no way that I can think of to explain this effect, unless the reactor was a fraud or there was cold fusion going on.
From Rossis blog:
Giorgio could you perhaps verify this through your contacts at UoB?AB
September 14th, 2011 at 10:07 AM
Thank you Andrea Rossi and Mats Lewan for these two videos. It is good to see that the 1 MW plant is on track. Are there any news about when the testing at the University of Bologna and the University of Upsala will start?
Andrea Rossi
September 14th, 2011 at 4:19 PM
Dear AB:
Bologna: already in operation the R&D, at its initial steps. Uppsala: sooner than expected you will have news.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
I checked with them 5 days ago and the reply was negative:
viewtopic.php?t=3200&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=420
I will give him another call to see if in these last days there has been any news.
viewtopic.php?t=3200&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=420
I will give him another call to see if in these last days there has been any news.
NyTeknik notes in their report:Skipjack wrote:From what I understand it was Rossi who did not want to run the self sustained experiment for longer than 30 minutes. He claims that he has to turn on the heating element every 30 minutes for 10 minutes to prevent the thing from getting unstable. I dont quite understand that. The temperature clearly dropped once the power was shut off and it did not look like it would rise again by itself or go out of control. This is one of those things are very ominous to me.
Didn't realize that one or two more hours would have given clearer results!?!Note 1: The test was ended at 23:10 on our request, for practical reasons and lack of time. We had at that point not yet analyzed the data and had not realized that one or two more hours would have given clearer results.
They go on to say:
Translation: after disconnecting, the heat production stops, so we need to plug it in again to produce more heat. Not exactly "self-sustaining"...Otherwise we would have continued. Supposedly this Ecat needs 10
minutes of full power electric input after every 30 minutes of self
sustaining operation, for stability reasons, in the worst case.
I think that fraud is very possible.Maui wrote:You speak as though this is merely an outside possibility...Crawdaddy wrote:there is no way that I can think of to explain this effect, unless the reactor was a fraud
I think the facts dictate that the e-cat is not the result of honest error. That is what my post was meant to convey.
Yeah, this is what I meant about Rossi not wanting to continue the self sustained test. I think that NyTeknik simply saw no meaning in continuing the test after the self sustained phase was over (which obviously can not be on for more than 30 minutes).Supposedly this Ecat needs 10
minutes of full power electric input after every 30 minutes of self
sustaining operation, for stability reasons, in the worst case.
I still think that they should have put a bit more effort into the test. It seemed all, once again, rushed and not very well planned or executed.
This is posted on Vortex today.Giorgio wrote:I checked with them 5 days ago and the reply was negative:
viewtopic.php?t=3200&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=420
I will give him another call to see if in these last days there has been any news.
Andrea Rossi
September 14th, 2011 at 4:19 PM
Dear AB:
Bologna: already in operation the R&D, at its initial steps. Uppsala:
sooner than expected you will have news.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Some here, either scientists or pretending to be such, do not understand what engineers know. It is simple enough to separate the water from the steam and subtracting that water from the inlet quantity gives the amount of water that has been vaporized. The calculation of the heat required to do this is simple and accurate enough for demonstration purposes.
There was never any question of turning all the liquid water into steam. That would be very foolish and leave the reactor without adequate cooling. Rossi clearly can control the reactor well enough to vaporize most of the water and knows enough not to vaporize it all.
There was never any question of turning all the liquid water into steam. That would be very foolish and leave the reactor without adequate cooling. Rossi clearly can control the reactor well enough to vaporize most of the water and knows enough not to vaporize it all.
I can't speak fully for what engineers know as I haven't gotten certified yet, but have completed a dual comp. sci. and EE degree. I don't think it's an argument of if there's water still left. If he's pumping a lot in, not everything is going to be converted to steam. My concern per the posted demonstration as I said before would be the Delta Temp from start to end of self-sustained mode and the required stability repowering every 30 minutes.parallel wrote:Some here, either scientists or pretending to be such, do not understand what engineers know. It is simple enough to separate the water from the steam and subtracting that water from the inlet quantity gives the amount of water that has been vaporized. The calculation of the heat required to do this is simple and accurate enough for demonstration purposes.
There was never any question of turning all the liquid water into steam. That would be very foolish and leave the reactor without adequate cooling. Rossi clearly can control the reactor well enough to vaporize most of the water and knows enough not to vaporize it all.
Did it say how long he had it repowered for every 30 minutes? I might have missed that when reading/watching the linked post.
For that particular demonstration Rossi said he would have to power the reactor for 10 minutes after every 30 minutes without power.
We have clues that tell us we don't know the full story yet. For the recent demos Rossi has stated that he de-rated the reactors for safety reasons.
From earlier comments, the reactors can be run without power for much longer when they are operating closer to the limit. The closer they operate to the limit, the greater the danger.
I complain that universities don't teach enough of how to actually do physical things (yourself, with your own hands) and I'm afraid that has become true for engineering too, at least in the US.
We have clues that tell us we don't know the full story yet. For the recent demos Rossi has stated that he de-rated the reactors for safety reasons.
From earlier comments, the reactors can be run without power for much longer when they are operating closer to the limit. The closer they operate to the limit, the greater the danger.
I complain that universities don't teach enough of how to actually do physical things (yourself, with your own hands) and I'm afraid that has become true for engineering too, at least in the US.
Haha, my father would agree as he recites a story about working at a radio station and the engineers there (new graduates) looking at the tubes with clueless expressions. He had to explain to them that transistors did not always exist. Luckily enough being my father's son, I was able to tag along throughout my childhood learning a great deal. Part of that was also learning what not to do like sticking your head inside the transmitter rack while discharging capacitors.I complain that universities don't teach enough of how to actually do physical things (yourself, with your own hands) and I'm afraid that has become true for engineering too, at least in the US.
I got a reply from my friend. He is still out but he asked to few people at UoB and got negative reply from all. No ecat at UoB yet for what he knows.parallel wrote:This is posted on Vortex today.Andrea Rossi
September 14th, 2011 at 4:19 PM
Dear AB:
Bologna: already in operation the R&D, at its initial steps. Uppsala:
sooner than expected you will have news.
Warm Regards,
A.R.