10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[RobL]

Ridiculous to stop it after 4 hours when you have spent so much time organising the event and particularly after the many hours spent electrically heating it (with similar power output). There would be no problem finding 1000's of people who would be willing to monitor it for days to establish the systems credibility.

Hopefully Rossi will run out of money soon and be forced to do a well organised, longer and unimpeachible demo by someone capable of good experimental technique. Either taht or he will be overtaken by Piantelli et al.

[Carl White]

Well, this really leaves the whole venture in the middle of nowhere.

My take (for what it's worth) is that he has something, but it's not really consistent enough to reliably run at higher ratios of power output to power input. Thus the marginal demonstrations.

Now he's nearly broke but still wants to retain control over the development and sales of the device. It will be difficult for him to proceed when possibly years of effort and research are still needed, and difficult to attract funding without giving up some control.

I think Defkalion is dead in the water.

If LLP doesn't come through, maybe it's time to start looking at thorium-fueled nuclear power.

[stefanbanev]

Here are some NyTeknik Reports on yesterdays E-Cat tests:

TV: New test of the E-cat enhances proof of heat
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 284823.ece


Test of Energy Catalyzer
Bologna October 6, 2011
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... +%28pdf%29

The timing of experiment indicates that it was following some feedback from "guts feeling" how reactor behaves. I got an impression that there were a several "attempts" to get in self-sustainable mode during "initial heating" phase. The termination of self-sustainable mode looks as well as the result of the some indicators that reactor is going down so it was shutdown as "planed". The heating phase 4 hours (2.5KW-in ~2.5KW-out) and 3.5 hours of self-sustainable run (115W-in ~2.8KW-out) does not look for me as a deliberately planed plot. During whole test the total OUT/IN ratio was at least 2/1. These numbers are very conservative and preliminary (based on my assessment), the report is publicly available so soon we see an accurate OUT/IN ratio along time line of experiment.

[Luzr]

What has really caught my eye is how long it took, after "switching off" the reactor by depresurising hydrogen and after increasing water flow, to get from 110C down to 100C - about 40 minutes if I have noticed well.

[stefanbanev]

Here are some NyTeknik Reports on yesterdays E-Cat tests:

TV: New test of the E-cat enhances proof of heat
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 284823.ece


Test of Energy Catalyzer
Bologna October 6, 2011
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... +%28pdf%29

The timing of experiment indicates that it was following some feedback from "guts feeling" how reactor behaves. I got an impression that there were a several "attempts" to get in self-sustainable mode during "initial heating" phase. The termination of self-sustainable mode looks as well as the result of the some indicators that reactor is going down so it was shutdown as "planed". The heating phase 4 hours (2.5KW-in ~2.5KW-out) and 3.5 hours of self-sustainable run (115W-in ~2.8KW-out) does not look for me as a deliberately planed plot. During whole test the total OUT/IN ratio was at least 2/1. These numbers are very conservative and preliminary (based on my assessment), the report is publicly available so soon we see an accurate OUT/IN ratio along time line of experiment.

On the bright side - if it was a result of deliberate fraud then such "opportunistic/sporadic" plot makes no sense unless it is a part of con setup (looks extremely unlikely). My impression that e-cat is a real manifestation of some kind of LENR phenomena has been strengthen but also it increases my suspicious that the processes in reactor are poorly controlled. Rossi has tried to compensate it by big number of small reactors so statistically he my negate it. Anyway, e-cat looks far away from the "end-user product" as I understand it but as proof of LENR it is going to make a dramatic impact ...

[ScottL]

What has really caught my eye is how long it took, after "switching off" the reactor by depresurising hydrogen and after increasing water flow, to get from 110C down to 100C - about 40 minutes if I have noticed well.

There's a lot of insulation on that thing, so doesn't completely surprise me.

[JoeP]

What has really caught my eye is how long it took, after "switching off" the reactor by depresurising hydrogen and after increasing water flow, to get from 110C down to 100C - about 40 minutes if I have noticed well.

There's a lot of insulation on that thing, so doesn't completely surprise me.

With significant water flow through the heat exchanger, then there would have to be a lot of heat stored in there for it to take 40 minutes to cool just ten degrees.

Whether that energy is LENR or fraud (hidden input), it remains to be seen.

[ScottL]

What has really caught my eye is how long it took, after "switching off" the reactor by depresurising hydrogen and after increasing water flow, to get from 110C down to 100C - about 40 minutes if I have noticed well.

There's a lot of insulation on that thing, so doesn't completely surprise me.

With significant water flow through the heat exchanger, then there would have to be a lot of heat stored in there for it to take 40 minutes to cool just ten degrees.

Whether that energy is LENR or fraud (hidden input), it remains to be seen.

That speaks to heat retention, not necessarily to heat production. As self-sustained mode started, the inlet temperature dropped 10 deg C, the room temp on average stayed the same, and the outlet temperature increased ~5 deg C over 4 hours, but started below room temperature as well. This really doesn't say much one way or the other. What I would be interested in is the graphs after 6 hours and 12 hours to see if the trend continues (temp drop).

[parallel]

[ScottL]

Parallel, thanks for the blown up version of the graph. The problem I have is that I think the initial temp drop from power-off to 16:28:44 is exaggerated. I don't think the device lost that much heat, but instead that the temperature gauge could be faulty (IE: lower readings), not to spec, or not locked down and losing contact with the reactor. I'm not saying these are definitive, just thoughts on ways to clear up confusion. I'm going to go back and watch the video again, to see if there's anything else. I'd rather remove all doubt.

[icarus]

Sloppiness of the experimental set-up is not encouraging. Could be anything, think we can rule out espresso machine, possibly a Nickel Hydrogen fuel cell ... maybe something more interesting. Leave it to the Swiss or Germans to do the metrology, Italians are a disaster.

Independent verification.

[Skipjack]

Man, really!
What a bunch of stupid idiots! No proper calorimetry was done! Again!
Sigh...
Still, despite that, I am lowering Rossi and the E- cat a couple of levels on the BS scale. I now give it a 50:50.

[ScottL]

Sloppiness of the experimental set-up is not encouraging. Could be anything, think we can rule out espresso machine, possibly a Nickel Hydrogen fuel cell ... maybe something more interesting. Leave it to the Swiss or Germans to do the metrology, Italians are a disaster.

Independent verification.

Pressurized hydrogen can act as a battery (fuel cell) I suppose. Is there enough at the pressure maintained in the "reactor" though? It's far more suspect to look at the methods for weighing the device and how the calorimetry was done.

[Maui]

I don't understand this:

Weight of E-cat
before test: 98 kg
after test: 99 kg

What kind of explanation would this have except to prove that the measurements were sloppy?

[quixote]

What kind of explanation would this have except to prove that the measurements were sloppy?

From nyteknik: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... +%28pdf%29

They used a bathroom scale, apparently, calibrated by two people who knew their own weight.

* Scale
Model: TKW 15 S
S/N: 2917029003
Max 15000 g
d= 0.1 g
Certified according to ISO 9001:2000
* Digital bathroom scale used for weighing the E-cat. It was calibrated by
two persons knowing their weight.