10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:28 pm

tomclarke wrote:
ScottL wrote:15:53 Power to the resistance was set to zero. A device “producing frequencies” was switched on.

What's this device and why was it on throughout the self-sustained mode? It appears to be turned on at the beginning of self-sustained mode and never switched off until (assumingly) the end of the experiment based on what's reported in the PDF.
Microwave oven perhaps?

Haha, that was my first thought too (hence my earlier comment about a hidden microwave)

JoeP · Post by **JoeP** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:31 pm

Carl White wrote:
Crawdaddy wrote:I freely admit that the e-cat has not been demonstrated conclusively in public.
But why is this?

Why couldn't the E-Cat have been left running overnight and into Oct. 7th?

Surely some of the scientists who had travelled all the way to Italy to observe this could have stayed for an extra day?

Surely someone would have volunteered to stay up with the E-Cat overnight?

Why always these marginal, ambiguous experiments when he should be able to just blow all doubt away with a performance of vast excess, if it works as described?

This kind of thing is the source of why I think the possibility of self-delusion of Rossi is there. Whatever he has is flaky enough to not permit that sort of experiment openly. If he could have brought a tank or pool of water up to near boiling for hours on end in self-sustained mode, then I think the doubts would quell significantly.

He probably hopes to smooth the output by his 1MW plant with many e-cats all going at the same time.

ScottL · Post by **ScottL** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:33 pm

stefanbanev wrote: Well, it looks too conspiratorial for me. There are so many simpler ways to make money unless kind of masochistic motives behind. This specific "cold fusion" domain has too negative "P&F" context to use it for such scheme. Self-delusion is still possible with random self-organized scam around with many naive victims involved, yes it is possible but I would asses it as 20% chances otherwise, I need to lower down considerably the threshold of people stupidity...

It's a small risk, huge reward scenario. If it fails you lose your investment, but if it works and/or is bought into you quickly turn a profit.

JoeP · Post by **JoeP** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:42 pm

stefanbanev wrote:
polyill wrote:
stefanbanev wrote: All points you've made make a perfect sense... however, for fraud it is TOO badly orchestrated. It would be actually easier to invent LENR then to maintain such uncontrollable scheme with so many involved people with no skin in the game... you give too mach credit to Rossi...
Ah, I was pretty exited of my dream, and so I just didn't phrase it right, Rossi is NOT the main character here, he is merely the black sheep (again? ) and might very well being forced into this game by the people who own his debts or he might be just delusional.

Now, on the part of "two many people" - I do not agree. All you need is:

1. The R&D manager who will lie. The engineers beneath him - are on the verge of being fired, loosing a well paid hi-tech job is anywhere near their preference. They will close eyes readily.
2. The finance person at Defkalion, preferably the CEO, who will participate the scam.
3. A "respectful" government official, who will vouch for all this scheme to the people-with-money. Greece is a MESS, lots of well placed political butts are about to loose everything, they will do anything to save themselves. Politics, you know.
Well, it looks too conspiratorial for me. There are so many simpler ways to make money unless kind of masochistic motives behind. This specific "cold fusion" domain has too negative "P&F" context to use it for such scheme. Self-delusion is still possible with random self-organized scam around with many naive victims involved, yes it is possible but I would asses it as 20% chances otherwise, I need to lower down (or move up) considerably the threshold of people stupidity...

Good point in your last paragraph Stefanbanev.

If you are going to orchestrate a huge scam, why would anyone choose cold fusion (or "LENR"). You are already starting out of the gate with the skeptic meter on maximum.

I'm further of the opinion that Rossi is not trying to scam anyone. Self-delusion or some unexplained effect is generating thermal energy.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:49 pm

JoeP wrote:
stefanbanev wrote:
polyill wrote:Ah, I was pretty exited of my dream, and so I just didn't phrase it right, Rossi is NOT the main character here, he is merely the black sheep (again? ) and might very well being forced into this game by the people who own his debts or he might be just delusional.

Now, on the part of "two many people" - I do not agree. All you need is:

1. The R&D manager who will lie. The engineers beneath him - are on the verge of being fired, loosing a well paid hi-tech job is anywhere near their preference. They will close eyes readily.
2. The finance person at Defkalion, preferably the CEO, who will participate the scam.
3. A "respectful" government official, who will vouch for all this scheme to the people-with-money. Greece is a MESS, lots of well placed political butts are about to loose everything, they will do anything to save themselves. Politics, you know.
Well, it looks too conspiratorial for me. There are so many simpler ways to make money unless kind of masochistic motives behind. This specific "cold fusion" domain has too negative "P&F" context to use it for such scheme. Self-delusion is still possible with random self-organized scam around with many naive victims involved, yes it is possible but I would asses it as 20% chances otherwise, I need to lower down (or move up) considerably the threshold of people stupidity...
Good point in your last paragraph Stefanbanev.

If you are going to orchestrate a huge scam, why would anyone choose cold fusion (or "LENR"). You are already starting out of the gate with the skeptic meter on maximum.

I'm further of the opinion that Rossi is not trying to scam anyone. Self-delusion or some unexplained effect is generating thermal energy.

Maybe self-delusion itself produces the extra energy.

Actually, that could explain a lot...

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:50 pm

TallDave,
Even that wouldn't work unless you had a VERY big pool. You've seen the arguments already. With a very big pool the dT would be too small (of course) so the temperature change was due to ambient conditions. Unless it works for days there must be a battery or some chemical reaction. Then, if it worked for days, who's to say someone didn't come in the middle of the night and add heat? Etc.

Maybe the idea is to get a multi-day experiment going so someone can visit at night and steal it.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:51 pm

I agree it would need to be very large, but it does simplify things. Probably.

"No swimming in the test pool! You're ruining the experiment!"

polyill · Post by **polyill** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:08 pm

TallDave wrote:
JoeP wrote:
stefanbanev wrote:Well, it looks too conspiratorial for me. There are so many simpler ways to make money unless kind of masochistic motives behind. This specific "cold fusion" domain has too negative "P&F" context to use it for such scheme. Self-delusion is still possible with random self-organized scam around with many naive victims involved, yes it is possible but I would asses it as 20% chances otherwise, I need to lower down (or move up) considerably the threshold of people stupidity...
Good point in your last paragraph Stefanbanev.

If you are going to orchestrate a huge scam, why would anyone choose cold fusion (or "LENR"). You are already starting out of the gate with the skeptic meter on maximum.

I'm further of the opinion that Rossi is not trying to scam anyone. Self-delusion or some unexplained effect is generating thermal energy.
Maybe self-delusion itself produces the extra energy.

Actually, that could explain a lot...

It has to be something really big to save a country. You have to excite very cautious people, you have to convert frustration and a feeling of things falling apart into a hope, and you have to promise a really BIG $$$ to the people that are in it for the money only. It seems stupid to you, cause you are sitting comfortably at your desk, all is quiet around you, you got little to worry about... Now imagine yourself on the edge, owing huge money to really bad people, or responsible for a country, you know you stole from, and now it's gonna blow in your face... Chikva said it's not psychology, it's physics - I say - on the contrary, people, no physics at all, pure social dynamics, betting big, under stress. Think poker game, think politics, think about people that are going all-in.

You are all caught in your engineering bubble

look out of it. No engineer is that bad as Rossi is. He's just a crazy pawn, a diversion. Nuf said.

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:26 pm

Rossi started out with several $million after selling his business.. He could have just sat back and taken it easy. It is really thinking out of the box to have a scam where you just use your own money.

sparkyy0007 · Post by **sparkyy0007** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:05 pm

Jed wrote:Hmmmm . . . I screwed up this analysis, I think. Let me try again.

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@es ... 52675.html

I love this guy.
Gotta give him credit, he's trying harder than Rossi.
I see a new demo coming...

polyill · Post by **polyill** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:22 pm

parallel wrote:Rossi started out with several $million after selling his business.. He could have just sat back and taken it easy. It is really thinking out of the box to have a scam where you just use your own money.

Aha, and you know this how, exactly? Stick to the physics, will ya?

Maui · Post by **Maui** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:24 pm

JoeP wrote:If you are going to orchestrate a huge scam, why would anyone choose cold fusion (or "LENR"). You are already starting out of the gate with the skeptic meter on maximum.

You are thinking about the investment community as a whole. In this case the "skeptic meter" is very relevant.

But you don't need the entire investment community to pull off a big scam. You just need a relatively small number of investors with a lot of money to throw around.

The entire world is thirsting for a miracle energy breakthrough. For any investors that had money in such a miracle, they would stand to make unimaginable profits.

Surely there is a sizable population scanning the horizon for such opportunities (after all, look at us!). To a scammer, these people make perfect targets because its going to be understood by any potential investor from the start that the risk is large... these people are not going to wait for for the proof to become irrefutable, because they want in on the ground floor. They don't want to risk waiting until their potential gem has already shot up 1000x in value. They have enough money that they are perfectly willing to accept that the investment will probably go nowhere... but the potential reward still makes it worthwhile to them.

Finally, while most people have LENR high on their skeptic meters, where else is a miracle energy breakthrough more imaginable than LENR?

Really, LENR makes perfect sense for a huge scam.

JoeP · Post by **JoeP** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:35 pm

Oh, I don't know. Polywell?

sparkyy0007 · Post by **sparkyy0007** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:42 pm

Re: [Vo]:Rossi heat exchanger fitting

Alan J Fletcher
Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:17:26 -0700
I said you will never get to the bottom of this, and it is not worth trying.

At 11:20 AM 10/10/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote:
You're probably right on that. So we're left with a purely qualitative demonstration. Ah well.

Crawdaddy
And that's why I didn't take up your challenge.

viewtopic.php?p=71091#71091

Maui · Post by **Maui** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:44 pm

JoeP wrote:Oh, I don't know. Polywell?

And Polywell could have worked as well. The target audience of such a scam probably would not put Polywell in a wholly different category than LENR.