10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:54 pm

I think that a scam is getting less and less likely with each demo that Rossi does especially with bigger audiences of scientists and engineers.
I am not completely ruling it out, but there are so many easier ways to make a scam than this.
The difference to Polywell is that it does not require some obscure new physics and its functionality was completely open and explained at the time they looked for funding.
Nobody knows anything about the inner workings of Rossis Ecat and that is why people are so sceptical and affraid of a scam.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:25 pm

Have you considered that it started out as a scam with the hope and prayer that enough people would describe how it may NOT be a scam that he has been able to lash together a unit that actually sort of works? Kind of a "design by scam apologist" method? Just a thought.

Axil · Post by **Axil** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:06 pm

KitemanSA wrote:Have you considered that it started out as a scam with the hope and prayer that enough people would describe how it may NOT be a scam that he has been able to lash together a unit that actually sort of works? Kind of a "design by scam apologist" method? Just a thought.

There is something true in what you say, but isn't that how all vaporware springs into the light of day of the real world.

Rossi has taken advise to improve his design from many people (that have been NICE to him) and has recently borrowed the Defkalion design whole cloth in retribution for the disrespect that they showed to him when they parted company.

Rossi does not take kindly to disrespect and criticism; notice how Defkalion always speaks about Rossi in glowing terms even though Rossi thinks that Defkalion is a pit of snakes.

Defkalion must have figured him out during the long months that they worked together and has come up with a way to deal with him and his many quirks.

bk78 · Post by **bk78** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:12 pm

I see that one only has to repeat the same nonsense over and over again, and eventually people will start to believe it. Would be a shame for politicians not to make use of this. This whole story is worthless from a physics perspective, but it is a treasure for demonstrating mass psychology.
@Kiteman: Good luck collecting enough Karma to change the laws of the universe, but as long as there are asholes like me, I fear, you wont be successful. I find this so funny that I compensate at least 10 of your kind :p.

@tomclarke: Interesting point. Note that the flow rate was measured at the INPUT. Most of it could go directly to the output of the primary. Suddenly the introduction of 2 loops and a heat exchanger makes sense, doesn't it?

@parallel, Joe:
Mats writes on NYTeknik:
"We also discovered that the two thermo couples were offset at least one degree high compared to others, in several ways, among them putting the thermocouples in a glass of water with ice, where they measured one degree. "
So much for the 0.1C accuracy.

polyill · Post by **polyill** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:23 pm

Skipjack wrote:I think that a scam is getting less and less likely with each demo that Rossi does especially with bigger audiences of scientists and engineers.
I am not completely ruling it out, but there are so many easier ways to make a scam than this.
The difference to Polywell is that it does not require some obscure new physics and its functionality was completely open and explained at the time they looked for funding.
Nobody knows anything about the inner workings of Rossis Ecat and that is why people are so sceptical and affraid of a scam.

...suppose Rossi is NOT the main figure of the scam, but rather the part that creates confusion and public interest. Creates noise. Suppose that Rossi is the non-credible one, and the scam is built for the "credible" participator - Defkalion. Suppose they are the bait, the money has to bite, not Rossi. suppose Rossi is nothing but a pressure on the scammed investor. That's why he suddenly uses "Defkalion technology".

Axil · Post by **Axil** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:34 pm

bk78 wrote: Good luck collecting enough Karma to change the laws of the universe, but as long as there are asholes like me, I fear, you wont be successful. I find this so funny that I compensate at least 10 of your kind.

Bk78,

With all affection, I am pleased that you still operate under the delusion that any human knows how the universe works, even a little.

CERN has'nt turned up anything that they hoped for since its restart after its most recent rebuild over these past many years: no higgs boson , no super-symmetry particles, possible Ftl particles or at least particles with mass going as fast as light. The subatomic world is all up in the air... more than ever. It seems to me that the standard model of how things work is in deep duedue.

IF there are infinite “yous” in never-ending and countless universes, overcoming the coulomb barrier doesn't seem that involved to comprehend in comparison.

I hope Rossi is right about cold fusion because I got a CERN guy to promise to eat his hat if cold fusion turns out to be real. I asked him for pictures and I can't wait for the fun to begin.

People who think they have the universe figured out provoke this contrarian attitude in me.

stefanbanev · Post by **stefanbanev** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:53 pm

bk78 wrote: Good luck collecting enough Karma to change the laws of the universe, but as long as there are asholes like me, I fear, you wont be successful. I find this so funny that I compensate at least 10 of your kind :p.

Sure you may keep your world together; frankly, the multiverse is big enough to accommodate any actualisations as soon as they are consistent; yours represents just one of such example, everybody gets the reality they believe in so no surprise everyone gets the proof they are looking for...

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:09 am

bk78 wrote:@Kiteman: Good luck collecting enough Karma to change the laws of the universe, but as long as there are asholes like me, I fear, you wont be successful. I find this so funny that I compensate at least 10 of your kind :p.

Which particular law needs to change? Be specific please. I keep asking but no-one has been able to tell me.

Enginerd · Post by **Enginerd** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:06 am

Axil wrote:Bk78,

With all affection, I am pleased that you still operate under the delusion that any human knows how the universe works, even a little.

No Higgs boson proves we know nothing about the workings of the universe? Rubbish.

Wrong is a relative term...

I will willingly grant that our knowledge of the universe is certainly incomplete -- there are all sorts of fascinating things still hiding in plain sight waiting for some bright spark to figure out. If CERN manages to prove there is no Higgs boson, that is not a failure, but a success -- giving us one more thing that we know about the universe. That would simply show that the standard model is incomplete, and needs a tune up. No shock there -- everybody has known it is incomplete since day one since it entirely ignores one of the fundamental forces of nature. None the less, the model has proven to be spectacularly useful, despite its known incompleteness.

CaptainBeowulf · Post by **CaptainBeowulf** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:00 am

Enginerd - well summed up, and I enjoyed the Asimov article more than most things I've read on here recently.

I find experimentation with the Woodward-Mach effect interesting, because it is one possible explanation for one of the incomplete parts of our understanding of the universe. I find it unlikely to be true, however, by pursuing the idea experimentally Woodward will hopefully eventually prove whether it is true or not. If it is clearly demonstrated to not work, we will have learned something: this is definitely not an aspect of how the universe works. Then we can focus on other explanations.

Similarly, the Polywell device is interesting. At our current level of knowledge, it is possible that a fusing plasma may be contained by this type of system. Experimentation can prove whether it will work or not. Quite likely, various problems will emerge which will show it to either be unstable or to not be able to bring plasma to a sufficient density or temperature for fusion. Nonetheless, we can't know that it doesn't work if we don't try. Given that Polywell experiments currently cost in the tens of millions of dollars, while tokamak experiments now cost in the billions, it seems a worthwhile investment to find out. Even if Polywell does work, it doesn't mean that Tokamaks were wrong. It would still be possible that given sufficient additional experimentation, and the application of new materials technologies, advances in superconductors, etc., Tokamaks might work.

On the other hand, Rossi provides us with entirely insufficient information to make any sort of a judgement on his devices. The lack of recent experimental data on Polywells is frustrating, but there's WB-1 through WB-6 data to go on. With Rossi it's entirely speculative...

tomclarke · Post by **tomclarke** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:02 am

KitemanSA wrote:
bk78 wrote:@Kiteman: Good luck collecting enough Karma to change the laws of the universe, but as long as there are asholes like me, I fear, you wont be successful. I find this so funny that I compensate at least 10 of your kind :p.
Which particular law needs to change? Be specific please. I keep asking but no-one has been able to tell me.

phi = (1/4*pi*e0)*q/r

Joseph Chikva · Post by **Joseph Chikva** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:38 am

CaptainBeowulf wrote:Given that Polywell experiments currently cost in the tens of millions of dollars, while tokamak experiments now cost in the billions, it seems a worthwhile investment to find out. Even if Polywell does work, it doesn't mean that Tokamaks were wrong.

Your assertion about cost does not quite correspond to true.
First TOKAMAKs were cheap too.
TOKAMAK's idea also is very simple. And even comparatively small labs could build that: with not bigger than betatron vacuum chamber, with similar to betatron induction system, with not stronger than Polywell external magnet coils (producing about 1 T of toroidal mag field in not a big volume)
But then scaling issue arised, then theory development with corresponding involvement of a lot of well paid people, conferences, international collaboration and in result the understanding of necessity of running at low beta and, so, necessity of very strong toroidal field, usage of superconducting magnets and, so, the necessity of immersing of already very large device (scaling - confinement time depends on dimensions) into cryostat with liquid Helium, etc.
Nonetheless, after about 50 years of development it is absolutely not clear if the concept of Advanced Tokamak (TOKAMAK running after the end of induction phase) is legit. As without that TOKAMAK has not any future.
Also, the way how the injection of neutrals is conducted in TOKAMAK would be less useful for commercial reactor (vacuum chamber is connected with chamber filled with gas and gas absorbers are at walls. Those then as I understand should be desorbed at high temperature after each shot).
So, very many engineering problems are unsolved.

And you are right saying about number of new materials technologies developing in TOKAMAK program’s frame. As results of those would be useful for other experiments as well.

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:27 pm

As forecast, Rossi can expect a lifetime of in-fighting.
See the latest open letter from the CEO(?) of Defkalion to Stremmenos.

Dear Christo,

It was with profound regret that I read your public letter and personal attacks against Defkalion. I was even more surprised by the obvious contradiction with your status as Honorary Vice President and Head of our company’s R&D. In legal terms, this could be considered by ill-wishers as a breach of contract.

Please recall that we have incurred considerable damage in the recent past from inaccurate statements. For example the announcement of alleged rights of Ampenergo, which are contradictory to our contractual rights with EFA. Christo, as you remember, the contract we signed on November 17, 2010 with EFA, clause 1.13 clearly states that our global presence excludes the USA and military applications.

As a key player involved between the contracted parties, you also signed a document relinquishing your impartiality to become a formal member of Defkalion’s BoD with the position of VP of R&D, which was given to you after your personal request for this position and was unanimously agreed by our BoD.

Since June you have unfortunately missed all of BoD meetings and R&D development breakthroughs. Although you and Rossi received, signed and approved our product designs for Version 3, we have made significant progress since then and are now in Version 7, which leads to a full working prototype ready for production.

Your declaration that "we don’t have the technology" is in contradiction to your recent attempts to entice away our scientists which was not concluded successfully.

We stress again that it is a pity that our designs were applied wrongly, demonstrating in public, immature prototypes with wrong protocols and instruments as explained in our communication on Monday, 10th October.

In all such cases, had there been close cooperation with Defkalion to develop the technology together, as opposed to focusing and putting pressure on us to receive money, many of these unfortunate legal and technical misunderstandings could have been avoided.

As such, all these created serious delays for all contractual parties and for payment to be made according to our contract. You will safely recall that payment is based on the successful demonstration according to protocols and procedures that have been supplied to EFA, whose conditions have not been met yet.

Many will agree that this situation is confusion to the point of comic tragic. Defkalion has the science, the know-how and the ability to proceed, the team, the electronics, the engineering, as well as all the funds required to move this project forward; there is no delusion. Yet, there seems to be a strange urgency to avoid the kick-off of this project but instead just to create negative noise. Defkalion respects your position and friendship, as well as Rossi’s creativity and ingenuity. However, patience has its limits and business has its goals. It would be a shame for Defkalion to move forward in LENR either alone or with alternative technologies.

I hope you agree that such a situation of confusion can only create great consternation. However, Defkalion confirms that it has the organization and professional team, plus all necessary infrastructure in order to direct the availability of funds. I sincerely hope that we shall press the start button together.

Alexandros Xanthoulis

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:32 pm

Looks like there is an interesting verbal escalation among the previous partners. Rossi, Defkalion and Stremmenos

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... 3#comments

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/v ... ?f=4&t=297

I find this of interest for our discussion:

You will safely recall that payment is based on the successful demonstration according to protocols and procedures that have been supplied to EFA, whose conditions have not been met yet.

stefanbanev · Post by **stefanbanev** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:49 pm

parallel wrote:As forecast, Rossi can expect a lifetime of in-fighting.
See the latest open letter from the CEO(?) of Defkalion to Stremmenos.
Dear Christo,

It was with profound regret that I read your public letter and personal attacks against Defkalion.....

It's quite well written in contrast with Rossi's communication. It's professional and well balanced; there are some quirks related to role of VP of R&D indicating that it's not as solid as they want to sound. Anyway, the intrigue is deepen; Rossi to survive needs to get in alliance a.s.a.p. with big fish, maybe it's already too late though;o(