10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[KitemanSA]

= 11,500 btu/min = 201kW/min = 1275 kW/hr

So a 2" pipe is in the right ball park.

Say WHA???
11,500 btu/min ~ 202kW ~ 0.2MW.

Need either 5X the flow rate or 5X the pipe area.

[parallel]

KitemanSA,

Seems to be a problem converting from per minute to per hour. 12,060kW. left out a zero. More in hand than I thought. Which makes sense. I would allow a x10 safety factor. Maybe he wants an even lower back pressure.

We don't know the actual size of the pipe.
The flow rate could be doubled with a moderate increase in pressure drop.
The modules are under computer control. Some could be turned down if one starts to "run away' out of control.

I was just doing a rough sum, looking at the safety aspect. Seems quite a risk to demonstrate something this powerful without more isolated tests first.

[Giorgio]

So a 2" pipe is in the right ball park.

It could be if you choosed the right values, but you did not.

If temperature of feed water is 25'C and temperature of steam reaches the 105'C during the experiment than this gives us a total of (more or less) 640 Kcal/kg of water.

1 MW/h = 860.000 Kcal, hence
Water Flow = 1300 Kg/h

At the said temperature Steam density is 0,7Kg/M3, giving us a flow of around 1800 M3/h.

On a 50 mm diameter th is is equal to a steam speed of 260m/sec or little bit less than 1000 Km/h.

Now, I did this calculation in 10 mins on a piece of paper in my hotel room at 2 AM in the morning after 14 hours of work, and Rossi (or the one who designed the system) never made it? Please......

[parallel]

Giorgio,

You may be right, but it is not worth the time to convert to btu etc. I simply used the numbers shown in the references in order to get a feel for the size of pipe required. Seems I dropped a zero so in fact there is plenty in hand. You came to a different conclusion. Took me all of 2 minutes...

[Giorgio]

We don't know the actual size of the pipe.

Here you can clearly see that the valve is a 2 1/2" valve, and the pipeline is a 2" line.
Is common practice to place a bigger valve on a pipeline section to reduce/neglect the pressure drop at the valve section.
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... _600px.jpg

The flow rate could be doubled with a moderate increase in pressure drop.

It doesn't work that way........

I was just doing a rough sum, looking at the safety aspect. Seems quite a risk to demonstrate something this powerful without more isolated tests first.

There is no need to make any isolated test. Math is telling you what will happen if they pump 1MW into that system.
What is needed here is that a real engineer takes over this mess and starts to rationalize it.

[Giorgio]

Giorgio,

You may be right, but it is not worth the time to convert to btu etc. I simply used the numbers shown in the references in order to get a feel for the size of pipe required. Seems I dropped a zero so in fact there is plenty in hand. You came to a different conclusion. Took me all of 2 minutes...

Where the heck do you see plenty in hand of safety in those numbers?

[Betruger]

Just what's needed. More vagueness in e-cat quantification.

[parallel]

Giorgio,

Where the heck do you see plenty in hand of safety in those numbers?

12,060kW capacity for steam with a 1 psi gauge pressure drop.

[sparkyy0007]

To be fair de Rossi, I should add that not only did I criticize the October
6 test, I also told him I think the upcoming test is unwise.

Okay, I admit, I said more than "unwise."

One of the people he is inviting suggested that they have an ambulance
parked at the factory in case something goes wrong. I told Rossi and that
person they should have the entire fire department attend, plus someone from
the coroner's office.

I also told them I am pretty sure they do not have a license or permission
to do this because no sane government official would allow such a thing.

This is 1 MW nuclear reactor that works by unknown principles. They intended
test it in a populated area, for the first time, in front of an audience.

Before you turn on such a machine, it is essential that you spend months and
thousands of hours gradually working your way up to that power level with
smaller units. You need to test the software and hardware that multiplexes
many units. You need to use a conventional 1 MW steam generator to test the
overall ability of the machine to handle that much steam. These tests must
be performed by hundreds of experts in many different locations, at many
different national and corporate laboratories. A machine of this size should
be tested the first time someplace like the White Sands Missile Range, with
observers located a good distance away in a block house.

This is common sense. Doing it any other way is lunacy. It is also as
amateur as a would-be pilots shown in the video I posted in the previous
message. Yes, it is as bad as that. I am not exaggerating. A person who
would even *think* of turning on such a large machine without extensive
tests beforehand is completely unqualified to be testing any kind of nuclear
process.

- Jed

Jed is bang on IMHO

From what I see on the construction of the demo reactor, Who in their right mind would buy it (for a utility purpose).
It's only value if it works is to be torn down and reverse engineered, that's all, and I am sure Rossi would have legal's in place to prevent capitalizing on that.
If the above is true, then why not just do a proper demo with 1 (safe!! unit), prove it works and hire real engineers to do this properly, or licence the (Proven!) technology.
Instead he risks going to jail, again.

[Am]

Jed is bang on IMHO

From what I see on the construction of the demo reactor, Who in their right mind would buy it (for a utility purpose).
It's only value if it works is to be torn down and reverse engineered, that's all, and I am sure Rossi would have legal's in place to prevent capitalizing on that.
If the above is true, then why not just do a proper demo with 1 (safe!! unit), prove it works and hire real engineers to do this properly, or licence the (Proven!) technology.
Instead he risks going to jail, again.

But, but, he's only qualified in Japanese...

[RobL]

From what I see on the construction of the demo reactor, Who in their right mind would buy it (for a utility purpose).
It's only value if it works is to be torn down and reverse engineered, that's all, and I am sure Rossi would have legal's in place to prevent capitalizing on that.
If the above is true, then why not just do a proper demo with 1 (safe!! unit), prove it works and hire real engineers to do this properly, or licence the (Proven!) technology.
Instead he risks going to jail, again.

Indeed, by operating above 0.5bar (which corresponds to 111°C for saturated steam) the october 6th demo contravenes the European Pressure Directive, (and ASME BPVC) as the temp got up to 124°C, closer to 1.25bar.

Also what sort of idiot designs a square box as a pressure vessel??? Why on earth does he need such a large volume of pressurised steam and water? And using a pump that could only pump up to 1.5bar - flow rate reducing as power output increases - is just a monumentally stupid recipe for disaster.

All around crappy and incompetent design (the sooner it is taken off him or superseded by someone with a brain the better), he should have just stuck with the original ecat and done a long duration demo with another hour or two spent on setting up the calorimetry to lift it above his usual muppet-show standard. Then he could've been a billionare months back and wouldn't have needed to sell his house.

[sparkyy0007]

Jed is bang on IMHO

From what I see on the construction of the demo reactor, Who in their right mind would buy it (for a utility purpose).
It's only value if it works is to be torn down and reverse engineered, that's all, and I am sure Rossi would have legal's in place to prevent capitalizing on that.
If the above is true, then why not just do a proper demo with 1 (safe!! unit), prove it works and hire real engineers to do this properly, or licence the (Proven!) technology.
Instead he risks going to jail, again.

But, but, he's only qualified in Japanese...

I think even Jed is realizing the difference between a circle and a square

[stefanbanev]

From what I see on the construction of the demo reactor, Who in their right mind would buy it (for a utility purpose).
It's only value if it works is to be torn down and reverse engineered, that's all, and I am sure Rossi would have legal's in place to prevent capitalizing on that.
If the above is true, then why not just do a proper demo with 1 (safe!! unit), prove it works and hire real engineers to do this properly, or licence the (Proven!) technology.
Instead he risks going to jail, again.

Indeed, by operating above 0.5bar (which corresponds to 111°C for saturated steam) the october 6th demo contravenes the European Pressure Directive, (and ASME BPVC) as the temp got up to 124°C, closer to 1.25bar.

Also what sort of idiot designs a square box as a pressure vessel??? Why on earth does he need such a large volume of pressurised steam and water? And using a pump that could only pump up to 1.5bar - flow rate reducing as power output increases - is just a monumentally stupid recipe for disaster.

All around crappy and incompetent design (the sooner it is taken off him or superseded by someone with a brain the better), he should have just stuck with the original ecat and done a long duration demo with another hour or two spent on setting up the calorimetry to lift it above his usual muppet-show standard. Then he could've been a billionare months back and wouldn't have needed to sell his house.

Without Rossi's self-sacrifice, LENR would be in an anabiosis state mach longer, in-spite of all downsides he brought with his eccentric character he did what normal person would not do for self-preservation reasons. Someone (like Krivit) may argue that he did more damage to LENR then goods, it's impossible to judge objectively with only one history available to rely upon; yet, I'm sure that the amount money involved in LENR research is getting up dramatically thanks to Rossi's "performance" as well.

[ladajo]

And Steven Krivit remains silent after his 10 Oct post over at New Energy Times.

I, for one, find this peculiar. Especially given that he has not opened the 10 Oct posting for comments.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/

[DancingFool]

steam flow 10.27lb/min through 2" pipe - 240 diameters for 1 psi gauge pressure drop.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22657/22 ... /flow.html

Say 1150 btu/lb to boil water
1 BTU/minute equals 0.01757 kilowatt. http://www.boilerroomservices.com/Facts/SteamTables.pdf

= 11,500 btu/min = 201kW/min = 1275 kW/hr

Sorry, parallel, but you've messed up your calculation.

11,500 btu/min = 202 kW. Period.