10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:09 am

parallel wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
parallel wrote:Giorgio, 12,060kW capacity for steam with a 1 psi gauge pressure drop.
Hey, listen up. If your first equality is correct (11,500BTU/min = 202kW; and it is) then the capacity is 0.2MW, not 12MW. You are off by almost 2 OoM.
202kW per minute

I think you are pretty confused parallel.....

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:13 am

icarus wrote:All those emotional skeptics who are convinced that there are no reactions going on should be made to stand next to the thing when Rossi fires it up for the first time .... that'll test the power of their convictions ... hahaha.

The least thing I have intention to do is to stand near that steam bomb when they power it up. IF it really produces 1 MW power there will be very little left of anyone standing in a 50 meter radius.

Am · Post by Am » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:01 am

Andrea Rossi
October 18th, 2011 at 2:38 AM

DIAMETER OF THE PIPES
A Reader, who asked not to publish his comment, asked how the diameter of steam pipes is calculated.
The steam pipes diameter is a result of the integration of many factors, anyway, we calculated the internal diameters of the 2 pipes which go to the 2 dissipators with the classic formula:
Di = SQUARE ROOT OF the resulting number from (4 x Q)/(3.14 x V),
wherein:
Di= internal diameter of the pipe
Q= flow rate in cubic meters/s
V= flow speed in m/s
A.R.= Andrea Rossi

I don't think he's an expert in Japanese, so perhaps he knows what he's talking about?

Luzr · Post by **Luzr** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:03 am

icarus wrote:All those emotional skeptics who are convinced that there are no reactions going on should be made to stand next to the thing when Rossi fires it up for the first time .... that'll test the power of their convictions ... hahaha.

With planned COP 6, there will be going more than 150KW INTO the device.

150KW steam heater can kill you in many ways, no need for any LENR...

1MW machine makes absolutely no sense, other than some weird scam.

(That said, I still hope ecat is real. Just like everybody. And I maintain my 50:50 opinion...)

Carl White · Post by **Carl White** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:18 am

Giorgio wrote: The least thing I have intention to do is to stand near that steam bomb when they power it up. IF it really produces 1 MW power there will be very little left of anyone standing in a 50 meter radius.

I find it unlikely that he hasn't run it already.

Why wouldn't he? What engineer in his right mind would wait for the customer to arrive before beginning testing of a prototype unit?

Luzr · Post by **Luzr** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:33 am

Carl White wrote:
Giorgio wrote: The least thing I have intention to do is to stand near that steam bomb when they power it up. IF it really produces 1 MW power there will be very little left of anyone standing in a 50 meter radius.
I find it unlikely that he hasn't run it already.

Why wouldn't he? What engineer in his right mind would wait for the customer to arrive before beginning testing of a prototype unit?

Rossi?

Mind you, that guy seems to be pretty mentally unstable and he has done weird things in the past. I would not be surprised...

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:02 pm

Joseph Chikva wrote: He did not or could not. For me "did not" and "could not" are the same.

Really?? Wow, you have an interesting affliction there. Seems you DO EVERYTHING you CAN do. You must have blown you nose at someone and farted into their face the last time you had the opportunity. I don't want you around me!

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:10 pm

The table says a 2" pipe carries ~10 lb/min of steam (1 psi pressure drop).
For one hour that is 600lb of steam
Say 1150 btu/lb to boil water.
1150 x 600 = 690,000 BTU
1 kW = 3412 BTU
So 690,000 BTU = 202 kW

You were right. - I don't normally use kW for heat...
Something is screwy. Even 50 psi drop only doubles the capacity.
I'll have to think about it.

From the same table one would need a 4 - 5" pipe

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:49 pm

parallel wrote:The table says a 2" pipe carries ~10 lb/min of steam (1 psi pressure drop).
For one hour that is 600lb of steam . . . . . . . . . {{Assume this}}
Say 1150 btu/lb to boil water. . . . . . . . . . . . . . {{Assume this}}
1150btu/lb x 600lb/hr = 690,000 BTU/hr . . . . . {{Dimensional analysis helps}}
1 kW = 3412 BTU/hr
So 690,000 BTU/hr = 202 kW

You were right. - I don't normally use kW for heat...
. . . And well you shouldn't. the BTU is an ENERGY unit. The kW is a POWER (energy/time) unit.
Something is screwy. Even 50 psi drop only doubles the capacity.
I'll have to think about it.

From the same table one would need a 4 - 5" pipe

Which is close to what I stated earlier (~5x area)

Joseph Chikva · Post by **Joseph Chikva** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:14 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote: He did not or could not. For me "did not" and "could not" are the same.
Really?? Wow, you have an interesting affliction there. Seems you DO EVERYTHING you CAN do. You must have blown you nose at someone and farted into their face the last time you had the opportunity. I don't want you around me!

When man says something like "I did something great that will change the world" I have not right to not believe, but when he after such claim shows me the total ignorance of very basic rules of experiments or conscious falsification of that for me is less interesting his real motives. As I am not buyer and also I am not prosecutor to catch him and put in jail.
So, "did not" and "could not" are the same for me - less interesting.

And if you fart frequently it would be better to steer clear from all. Not only from me. Also treat intestines. Or don't eat beans.

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:19 pm

Am wrote:I don't think he's an expert in Japanese, so perhaps he knows what he's talking about?

Nope.
Just because someone cites an high school physics formula you really think that he knows what he is talking about?

If he wants to show some knowledge than he should give the starting Q with temperature/pressure (to calculate steam density), tell us what was the desired speed into the pipeline and show us how he reached a 2" pipeline diameter.
I am sure that's going to be a very funny calculation....

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:29 pm

Luzr wrote:
Carl White wrote:
Giorgio wrote: The least thing I have intention to do is to stand near that steam bomb when they power it up. IF it really produces 1 MW power there will be very little left of anyone standing in a 50 meter radius.
I find it unlikely that he hasn't run it already.

Why wouldn't he? What engineer in his right mind would wait for the customer to arrive before beginning testing of a prototype unit?
Rossi?

Mind you, that guy seems to be pretty mentally unstable and he has done weird things in the past. I would not be surprised...

Andrea Rossi
October 16th, 2011 at 4:10 PM
Dear Enzo Amato:
I confirm: on the 28th so far there are no obstacles to run the test. Of course, if in the preliminar tests we are running something will go wrong, we will have to delay. But so far, so good.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Looks like he is indeed running some preliminary tests. If he blows himself up in the process, we may see how good of notes he took on the "secret sauce."

Crawdaddy · Post by **Crawdaddy** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:05 pm

parallel wrote:The table says a 2" pipe carries ~10 lb/min of steam (1 psi pressure drop).
For one hour that is 600lb of steam
Say 1150 btu/lb to boil water.
1150 x 600 = 690,000 BTU
1 kW = 3412 BTU
So 690,000 BTU = 202 kW

You were right. - I don't normally use kW for heat...
Something is screwy. Even 50 psi drop only doubles the capacity.
I'll have to think about it.

From the same table one would need a 4 - 5" pipe

From the chart you reference, if the pressure is 50psi then the pipe can transmit 20lbs per minute with a loss of 1psi over a distance of 480 inches.

From equation 44 in your link, the pressure drop varies as the square of the steam flow. If you quintuple the flow the pressure drop would be 25 psi, over 480inches.

All this is academic however, because, from the readily available video at ny teknik, we can see that the steam manifold internal to the shipping container much greater than 2" in diameter. In fact, if we assume that it is 4" in diameter, then combining the data from table 66 and 68 from your link we can see that the device is completely consistent with 1 MW of steam flow and the short 2" outlet pipe (assume a 2.5psi pressure loss over a 48" length from equation 44), serves as a method of generating back pressure in the instrument, raising the internal pressure of the generator to ~25psi absolute pressure. Again from table 68 we can see that this corresponds to a steam flow of just over 60lbs per minute through a 2" outlet.

In short your link shows that, at 1MW, the possibility of the device exploding is remote. If the, in the end, the output is only 167kW, then the possibility of an explosion is even more unlikely.

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:55 pm

Crawdaddy,
Agreed. I was just looking for order of magnitude.
The problem with raising the pressure much is the square design of the Fat-Cat box. Obviously not designed as a pressure vessel.
Unlike some here, I don't think Rossi is stupid so he probably knows more about the situation than anybody here.

Betruger · Post by **Betruger** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:13 pm

He knows more than anyone about what makes the e-cat tick. Well who woulda thought.