Well that is the question, isnt it?
I do have to wonder though, that if you were to invent a customer, who is the only one checking your results, why conduct the experiment and present results in a way that adds fuel to the doubters.
E.g. why have less than 500kW output?
Why have a heat measurement table that fuels the doubters?
Why not have the machine running in an alleged self sustainig mode for days (if there was no real customer then nobody was checking up on that anyway)?
Possible explanation (konjecture? is that good scam needs spice. If things are going too well, it is suspicious. You need some little quirks to make it real...
(That said, I am still 50:50. But if it is real, Rossi is the poorest bussinesman in the world...)
As I said earlier, I think that the proof will be in the UoB and UoU testing. If the customer is real, then Rossi should have the money for the tests and he will be running out of excuses for why the reasearch is not done.
All that will be interesting to see in the coming weeks/months.
Agree and Giorgio says he has sources w/i UoB that should be able to at least tell him if/when the contract is in force (i.e. Rossi has paid). At that point, I think fraud is pretty much off the table as I think collusion with 5/6 PhDs whose futures are at stake is very unlikely. Self-delusion will still be an option although I doubt we would have to wait too long before some dismal test results would leak out.
Similarly, I would think Mats Lewan would have some sources w/i the UoU research team.
BTW, why have two university groups look at this if it is a fraud. Just more folks to swear to secrecy and pay off with little additional benefit. The whole fraud thing is already pretty thin IMO. Thats not to say that Rossi might not have invented a customer when faced with all his promises to demo the 1MW plant to a customer in October and having one pull out near the promised demo date. People do lots of wierd stuff to save face.
Well that is the question, isnt it?
I do have to wonder though, that if you were to invent a customer, who is the only one checking your results, why conduct the experiment and present results in a way that adds fuel to the doubters.
E.g. why have less than 500kW output?
Why have a heat measurement table that fuels the doubters?
Why not have the machine running in an alleged self sustainig mode for days (if there was no real customer then nobody was checking up on that anyway)?
All that just does not quite add up for me.
That does not mean that there is no room for fraud, but the "invented customer" theory seems to be a really far stretch with absolutely no evidence.
As I said earlier, I think that the proof will be in the UoB and UoU testing. If the customer is real, then Rossi should have the money for the tests and he will be running out of excuses for why the reasearch is not done.
All that will be interesting to see in the coming weeks/months.
Why do all this? If you are trying to lure people to give you their money, but don't have a real product to put under real scientific scrutiny, how else would you drum up money? (About 470Kw vs 1MW... given that you are using that as strong evidence the tech is real, why is it such a stretch that Rossi would realize this would help further convince the believers that what he has is real?)
I've said this before-- its not the skeptics he's after, he doesn't care about the skeptics. He's after a small segment of the population that has a lot of money to throw around and are less concerned about the possibility of wasting some of their money than they are with missing an opportunity to be in on the ground floor of a world-changing product.
Thus far it seems to me Rossi has done everything someone would do to try to convince these people he has a real product when he has none. It looks like fraud, smells like fraud... if you want to taste it too, go right ahead; I'll just watch, thank you very much.
Maui wrote:
I've said this before-- its not the skeptics he's after, he doesn't care about the skeptics. He's after a small segment of the population that has a lot of money to throw around and are less concerned about the possibility of wasting some of their money than they are with missing an opportunity to be in on the ground floor of a world-changing product.
Exactly right. Rossi has said he only cares about the marketplace for his product numerous times.
Maui wrote:
Thus far it seems to me Rossi has done everything someone would do to try to convince these people he has a real product when he has none. It looks like fraud, smells like fraud... if you want to taste it too, go right ahead; I'll just watch, thank you very much.
While the fact that Rossi was involved in fraud in past endeavors lends credence to this thought, I don't understand how he can possibly think much of this will turn out well for him should the E-Cat be a fake product.
Customer would have to be an idiot not to have some kind of refund clause in the contract. Where is Rossi's "fraud" money going to come from then? It will all crash down over a period of time and he will take a few real scientists with him as well. Are all these people really that stupid?
I think it is more likely that he is a tinkerer, an inventor, and by diligent trial and error hit on something that appears to generate more heat output than the input. I bet it does too...at least for a certain time period such as we have seen in most of the "demos" (in operation less than six hours). He could have a really great battery.
Why do all this? If you are trying to lure people to give you their money, but don't have a real product to put under real scientific scrutiny, how else would you drum up money?
Because it does not convince anyone. In contrary the low output and has been quoted as a main point of critizism.
Also, why didnt he just use more convincing numbers if nobody was there to control them?
It does not make sense.
(About 470Kw vs 1MW... given that you are using that as strong evidence the tech is real, why is it such a stretch that Rossi would realize this would help further convince the believers that what he has is real?)
You dont have to convince a believer...
Look, I am not saying that Rossi is not a fraud, but the whole "the custome is not real" argument does not make any sense. There is no evidence that this is the case and, if as you said that there are plently of idiots arround that dont care and have money to throw around, why are you so sure that this guy was not one of them?
Again, no matter on what side you are on, the argument does not make sense.
Last edited by Skipjack on Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I think the question of whether Rossi has a customer and whether the customer was "satisfied" with his demonstration are two separate questions.
Assuming there is a customer, it's probably within reason to speculate that the customer is an entity that uses vast amounts of energy, spends large sums of money on that energy, and thus can easily write off $2 million as a research expense. In other words, the real demonstration may be going on right now, behind closed doors and outside of Rossi's control.
Temperature, density, confinement time: pick any two.
icarus wrote:That sounds like an impressively broad statement of knowledge, care to back it up with citations? There should be thousands by this account, a textbook even?
Are you referring to mono-layers on a backing substrate or freely occurring in a nano-particle powder?
Neither broad nor impressive, just knowledge.
From the start till the end of the 90's this was a hot topic, an area of research from where many expected to discover new technologies that should have changed the world by opening the Hydrogen era and so on.
Most were researching in Ni mono/thin layers on Copper substrates, other were trying more exotic materials or single/engineered layers.
In the end they were all very interesting researches, but all technological dead ends.
If you google for it you should find plenty of references for your research.
Skipjack wrote:The last test was designed by the customer. So he had no hand in it. So you cant blame him for that.
Of course for that you would have to assume that the customer was real.
I still think that this is the case and I have seen no evidence to think otherwise.
My main doubt is why a real customer should have choosed such a complicated setup (that is also prone to many errors) while he could have done a more accurate test with much less equipment and getting a result that would have cleared any objection.
This point is just too big for me. Any good thermal engineer could have made that test in a more meaningful way.
Skipjack wrote:For me the proof is at the universities of Bologna and Upsala. Once they start their research, I can savely rule out fraud. That would only leave self (or mass?) delusion.
My main doubt is why a real customer should have choosed such a complicated setup (that is also prone to many errors) while he could have done a more accurate test with much less equipment and getting a result that would have cleared any objection.
This point is just too big for me. Any good thermal engineer could have made that test in a more meaningful way.
I do get the point that the test- setup was not particularly good. I fully agree with that and I can see why that might raise some doubts about the legitimacy of the client.
But, then again if the client was not real and nobody else was allowed to observe the test and participate in it, it would mean that Rossi was in full control of the entire test. He could have faked it much more convincingly than he did. There would have been no need for such a complex setup and leaving so many holes that raise doubts, if he was in full control of the data. He could have just set up a totally convincing system and entered whatever result he wanted to. It just does not add up.
Skipjack wrote:The last test was designed by the customer. So he had no hand in it. So you cant blame him for that.
Of course for that you would have to assume that the customer was real.
I still think that this is the case and I have seen no evidence to think otherwise.
My main doubt is why a real customer should have choosed such a complicated setup (that is also prone to many errors) while he could have done a more accurate test with much less equipment and getting a result that would have cleared any objection.
This point is just too big for me. Any good thermal engineer could have made that test in a more meaningful way.
Skipjack wrote:For me the proof is at the universities of Bologna and Upsala. Once they start their research, I can savely rule out fraud. That would only leave self (or mass?) delusion.
I do agree on this.
Customer is not a single person, it is likely a group of people with different points of view so, the group supporting to look at e-cat tries to build up their case stronger so 1MB serves this purpose better and goes along with Rossi's message to other potential customers. At this point, it makes no sense to discuss e-cat anymore; it has been exposed to public sufficiently, the "scientific" data about e-cat is apparently not a Rossi's priorities; in fact I would expect from Rossi a misleading tips so, to discuss his ability to disguise the process inside e-cat is pointless; irrelevantly, if it is fraud/delusion/real for all these cases Rossi's logical course of action it to mislead...
stefanbanev wrote: At this point, it makes no sense to discuss e-cat anymore; it has been exposed to public sufficiently, the "scientific" data about e-cat is apparently not a Rossi's priorities; in fact I would expect from Rossi a misleading tips so, to discuss his ability to disguise the process inside e-cat is pointless; irrelevantly, if it is fraud/delusion/real for all these cases Rossi's logical course of action it to mislead...
This could easily be the most important scientific breakthrough ever. It will be discussed ad infinitum. Why wait for the mainstream media to bless it, or the UofB, or a blessed science journal, or until you personally are scalded by the anomalous heat? We should be doing everything possible to investigate it. I'm guessing more than a few readers here will end up working in this new field... if the effect is even 1% real.
This is where you can read Rossi in near-real time: http://www.rossilivecat.com/ (With handy translate button for the Italian Q/A.)
There may be misdirection by Rossi, but you have to give him credit for answering a lot of questions with clear and direct response. (Feel free to find lies... I've seen a few changes of intention and flared temper, but I'd be interested to see anyone's idea of an outright lie.)
icarus wrote:That sounds like an impressively broad statement of knowledge, care to back it up with citations? There should be thousands by this account, a textbook even?
Are you referring to mono-layers on a backing substrate or freely occurring in a nano-particle powder?
Neither broad nor impressive, just knowledge.
From the start till the end of the 90's this was a hot topic, an area of research from where many expected to discover new technologies that should have changed the world by opening the Hydrogen era and so on.
Most were researching in Ni mono/thin layers on Copper substrates, other were trying more exotic materials or single/engineered layers.
In the end they were all very interesting researches, but all technological dead ends.
If you google for it you should find plenty of references for your research.
So in the end, nothing but more hot air from Giorgio. I'll just remind you of your claim because you have omitted it:
Nickel monolayer (but also Cobalt, Iron, copper and others) are under scrutiny since more than 20 years for Hydrogen absorption and release. There is little we do not know of the main chemical and physical behavior of films of few atomic layers of these material from 0K all the way up to 1000 K and more.
That, to me anyway, sounds an incredibly broad and sweeping state of knowledge and you say there is no text book? "There is little we do not know" is the bit I really like since with implicit arrogance it assumes there is nothing else anyone could possibly discover that genii like yourselves haven't already researched .... ivory tower academic position protection at its finest, imho.
Time to back up your BS and emotional outbursts Giorgio ... and if there is little you do not know you won't mind if I ask a few pertinent questions in the field?
My main doubt is why a real customer should have choosed such a complicated setup (that is also prone to many errors) while he could have done a more accurate test with much less equipment and getting a result that would have cleared any objection.
This point is just too big for me. Any good thermal engineer could have made that test in a more meaningful way.
I do get the point that the test- setup was not particularly good. I fully agree with that and I can see why that might raise some doubts about the legitimacy of the client.
But, then again if the client was not real and nobody else was allowed to observe the test and participate in it, it would mean that Rossi was in full control of the entire test. He could have faked it much more convincingly than he did. There would have been no need for such a complex setup and leaving so many holes that raise doubts, if he was in full control of the data. He could have just set up a totally convincing system and entered whatever result he wanted to. It just does not add up.
Imagine the customer doesn't really care about the science and only if the thing can do what Rossi says it can do for a moment ... who would want such a product?
Someone with a remote camp that needs heating is a distinct possibility ... I'm thinking somewhere cold, like Antartica or Artic circle where you cannot get fuel in easily or at all, like over-wintering or a war zone in the Afghan mountains. This also gels with why he wants self-sustain demo .... no fuel for aux. power needed.
Then hook it up exactly as it would be when used in the field, with simple heat exchangers, nothing complicated, just run it as he would use it and see if it works, without fuel .... job done, buy it.
is that good scam needs spice. If things are going too well, it is suspicious. You need some little quirks to make it real...