10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:23 pm

TallDave wrote:
ladajo wrote:We would see the Single Source contract in the system. There is none.
It is not the navy. I suspect it is "N"o one, this is more probable than not.
Sorry, you would see it where, exactly? Does that hold for anything funded by the Navy or their contractors?

Rossi is telling people Paul Swanson can vouch for the test, that seems to indicate they are at least interested.

I guess we'll see how the next year goes, Rossi claims to be booked through 2012 now. E-cats will either start demonstrating their abilities commercially very soon, or fail to materialize as usually happens for this sort of device.

It would be visible on fbo.gov or neco.
Paul Swanson says he can not vouch for the test, regardless of what Rossi says.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:48 pm

seedload wrote:
MSimon wrote: by a simple manipulation of nuclear forces mediated by the TBD particle(s). which is/are always present in the quantities needed and at the exact time and place required.
Their oscillating!

Some of them are phased.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:04 am

MSimon wrote: Magnitudes matter. At a few mW 1 cm of lead may be adequate. Up that 4 or 7 orders of magnitude) and you are talking serious mass.

The photon frequency (energy) also matters. How much lead would a kW of 350keV gamma require?

MSimon wrote: You can't do engineering without running the numbers.

AGREE COMPLETELY. Too bad we don't have any real numbers to do any real engineering. Oh well!

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:02 am

The 1/10 thickness (lead) for 350 KeV gammas is 1 cm. I leave it to you to provide the rest of the numbers.

You won't like the results.

1 ev = 1.60217646 × 10-19 joules

1000 w/(350,000 *1.6e-19)= 17,857,142,857,142,857 gammas a second.

say 1.79e18 gammas a second let us say we spread that over 1 m^ for convenience. So you have 1.8 e14 gammas a second Ans want to reduce it to 1 gamma/cm^2/second.

About 14 cm of lead should do it. So it is 10,000 *14 cc. 140,000 ccs. Density of lead is 11.3 g/cc. = 1,582 Kg. A little over a metric ton and a half. Doable. Even if it goes to 50% more than that. Higher energies will require more shielding as shielding effectiveness goes down with increasing energy. If most of your photons are above 1 MeV - weight problems.

ltgbrown · Post by **ltgbrown** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:50 pm

By the way, adding the other 246 pages from the other thread, we've just passed 400 pages in total.

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:59 pm

Latest news is that Rossi dropped the price from 2000 Euro/KW to 500 Euro/KW.

Black Friday is coming also in Rossi land! Everyone grab your piggy banks, is time to make a serious investment.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:58 pm

MSimon wrote:The 1/10 thickness (lead) for 350 KeV gammas is 1 cm. I leave it to you to provide the rest of the numbers.

You won't like the results.

1 ev = 1.60217646 × 10-19 joules

1000 w/(350,000 *1.6e-19)= 17,857,142,857,142,857 gammas a second.

say 1.79e18 gammas a second let us say we spread that over 1 m^ for convenience. So you have 1.8 e14 gammas a second Ans want to reduce it to 1 gamma/cm^2/second.

About 14 cm of lead should do it. So it is 10,000 *14 cc. 140,000 ccs. Density of lead is 11.3 g/cc. = 1,582 Kg. A little over a metric ton and a half. Doable. Even if it goes to 50% more than that. Higher energies will require more shielding as shielding effectiveness goes down with increasing energy. If most of your photons are above 1 MeV - weight problems.

From what I can find quickly wrt gamma shielding, your post above suggests that the frequency of the radiation does NOT matter in the halving distance. Is that what you are saying? Would the same power of 6MeV gamma require the same thickness as 350keV? Is that what you are saying?
Where does it stop, frequency wise?

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:56 pm

ladajo wrote:It would be visible on fbo.gov or neco.
Paul Swanson says he can not vouch for the test, regardless of what Rossi says.

Well, I tried fbo for EMC2, who we know is a contractor, and all it says is "Thank You for Contacting Us
Thank you for contacting US Contractor Registration. Someone will be contacting you shortly." which isn't very helpful. I didn't find any reference to EMC2 on the NECO synposis search either. Even assuming this is just a result of my not having a lot of familiarity with the sites, since we don't know who Rossi might have subcontracted with it isn't even clear who exactly we should be searching for.

As best I can tell, Swanson has only said he will not comment at all. Regardless of whether Swanson does actually vouch for the E-cat test results, Rossi bringing his name up suggests either the Navy has some interest, or that Rossi is so insane he is naming the names of people who have no interest.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:02 pm

Giorgio wrote:
TallDave wrote:Nearly all the focus has been on whether the tests were flawed/faked, but I wonder if that's the wrong question. It's possible the tests were all exactly as they seemed, but the reaction is chemical and that's what Rossi is either hiding or ignorant of.

Should run some numbers and see how long a chemical reaction might power an e-cat.
Done that in the previous thread, around page 100 or so if I remember well.
No chemical reaction with Ni or Ni compounds can power it for the times reported in the tests.

Ah, good, I thought someone might have done that. Does that rule out any possible novel reaction as well?

Another interesting story: http://ecatnews.com/?p=1365

I'll look forward to hearing from Ahern on Dec 7. I wonder how Rossi's customer likes their E-Cat so far? A few more deliveries and we can at least rule out with some confidence that the customers are not real, if not necessarily satisfied...

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:27 pm

@Kahuna
As promised.
--------------------------------------

I got puzzled, to say the least, in following the vicissitudes of the contract of UniBo with the EFA company (E-Cat, Rossi) ... and quoting Daniele, "... by the pressures made on University of Bologna to disengage from the project" ... !...?... [editor's note, the exact quote at which Stremmenos is referring is "... there are certain people, or rather groups of interest, that, in addition to spreading mud everywhere (using even some journalists that I know and/or that can have an influence in the decisional process), are pressuring the 'University of Bologna to disengage from the contract with Rossi, whether it has been activated or not. "]

Since in this University I was born and grew up scientifically from the early fifties, allow me to make certain considerations: my great teachers of that time as Professor Bonino and others, have taught me that the University has the main task of transmitting current knowledge and to create new knowledge...

I do not think that we are missing now such small funds as the one that are needed to start a research on a topic that can have so huge...implications...!

The involution and the deviation from the original renaissance vocation of this great University, the prevalence of poor bureaucratic criteria over science, the management of funds of the departiments controlled by small intetrest groups and other degenerative causes, prevent the opening ... to new scientific horizons ...

I enclose my personal experience (that I hope is appreciated by your readers) dating back to the '90s when in parallel with Sergio Focardi we used to carry out this research among the incredulity of our colleagues (it was fashionable ...!) and. .. among the tolerance of the Academic Authorities.

This was past history ... let's hope it will not happen again ...

Christos Stremmenos

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:57 pm

Giorgio wrote:@Kahuna
As promised.
--------------------------------------

I got puzzled, to say the least, in following the vicissitudes of the contract of UniBo with the EFA company (E-Cat, Rossi) ... and quoting Daniele, "... by the pressures made on University of Bologna to disengage from the project" ... !...?... [editor's note, the exact quote at which Stremmenos is referring is "... there are certain people, or rather groups of interest, that, in addition to spreading mud everywhere (using even some journalists that I know and/or that can have an influence in the decisional process), are pressuring the 'University of Bologna to disengage from the contract with Rossi, whether it has been activated or not. "]

Since in this University I was born and grew up scientifically from the early fifties, allow me to make certain considerations: my great teachers of that time as Professor Bonino and others, have taught me that the University has the main task of transmitting current knowledge and to create new knowledge...

I do not think that we are missing now such small funds as the one that are needed to start a research on a topic that can have so huge...implications...!

The involution and the deviation from the original renaissance vocation of this great University, the prevalence of poor bureaucratic criteria over science, the management of funds of the departiments controlled by small intetrest groups and other degenerative causes, prevent the opening ... to new scientific horizons ...

I enclose my personal experience (that I hope is appreciated by your readers) dating back to the '90s when in parallel with Sergio Focardi we used to carry out this research among the incredulity of our colleagues (it was fashionable ...!) and. .. among the tolerance of the Academic Authorities.

This was past history ... let's hope it will not happen again ...

Christos Stremmenos

Thanks G.

So he wants UoB to start E-Cat R&D on its own funds and says they should resist external pressures to disengage from Rossi (whatever those are) in consideration of the great potential that E-Cat technogy has for mankind.

I guess if Rossi was willing and able to deliver an E-Cat to UoB, but unable (or willing) to deliver funding, this would make a little sense.

As I stated before, Stemmenos appears to be a near constant sidekick of Rossi's and ought to know exactly what Rossi is able and/or willing to do. Best case is that Rossi needs all the money for early sales to finance production of the next round of product and none is left for the UoB contract so Stemmenos is trying to get it started anyway. Worst case, Rossi had no customer and therefopre has no money to give to UoB. I would think he would still be willing to give an E-Cat if he was ever sincere. In either case, the Stemmenos letter makes little sense unless you assume he is convinced the technogy is good.

I posted a question about this on Rossi's blog but he ignored it so I guess he is not anxious to address the topic or clarify the letter.

Ran across this on point:

http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi ... ore-units/

Rossi also explains that the work he will be doing with the University of Bologna will go beyond merely testing the E-Cat units — they will be involved in studying the nuclear reaction phenomena with a view to coming to a solid theoretical understanding of what is happening. He said they may even arrive at a new theoretical model.
He writes, “Once we understand the phenomenon, we could discover new, unexpected ways to exploit it, as i believe it will happen. Today, it’s very hard for everyone to imagine an enegetic scenario where fossil fuels are no longer needed, still… i firmly believe that day isn’t that far away.”

So now Rossi can build 13 more units for a customer which refuses to be revealed. Hmmm...

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:48 pm

I guess if Rossi was willing and able to deliver an E-Cat to UoB, but unable (or willing) to deliver funding, this would make a little sense.

Yeah, but didnt he announce that he wanted to give the UoB the money for the testing and research, once he got the money from his customer?
So either the customer did not pay, or Rossi was liing.

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:55 pm

Kahuna wrote:So he wants UoB to start E-Cat R&D on its own funds and says they should resist external pressures to disengage from Rossi (whatever those are) in consideration of the great potential that E-Cat technogy has for mankind.

What he is completely missing is that Rossi himself looks not willing to deliver an e-Cat to anyone except his mysterious customers.

There has been quite an amusing exchange of correspondence between Prof. Celani and Rossi himself on the pages of a known Italian Scientific Magazine called "Focus".
Prof Celani Proposed a quick and cheap (10K Euro) test to validate Rosi's e-Cat, and Rossi refused.
They provided also an English translation.

Prof. Celani proposal for a validation test
Rossi rejection of above proposal

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:55 pm

Skipjack wrote:
I guess if Rossi was willing and able to deliver an E-Cat to UoB, but unable (or willing) to deliver funding, this would make a little sense.
Yeah, but didnt he announce that he wanted to give the UoB the money for the testing and research, once he got the money from his customer?
So either the customer did not pay, or Rossi was liing.

Or both

stefanbanev · Post by **stefanbanev** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:21 pm

Giorgio wrote:
Skipjack wrote:
I guess if Rossi was willing and able to deliver an E-Cat to UoB, but unable (or willing) to deliver funding, this would make a little sense.
Yeah, but didnt he announce that he wanted to give the UoB the money for the testing and research, once he got the money from his customer?
So either the customer did not pay, or Rossi was liing.
Or both

Once Rossi has sufficient number of "customers" he apparently has no objective reason to waste money for universities. The universities may be helpful to buck up the credibility of technology so, having the customers in line cancels the need for such "cooperation"; in fact, it increases the risk of leaking out of "secrets". So if Rossi does pay 500K may indicate that he still does not feel secure enough about his business footprint, likely because the e-cat is not robust enough to meet the criteria to be a product.