10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[parallel]

GIT

Just saying, I don't think Rossi has made a serious attempt to provide the world with credible evidence.

He doesn’t need to.

The fact he bought himself an academic credential goes very hard against his believability.

He has a genuine PhD.. He probably took the other course in order to learn something. It’s not just to buy a certificate for money. He didn’t need the degree. He never mentions it.

It is in light of these very salient issues, Rossi needs to win his critics with the evidence

As above. He doesn’t need to at all.

WHY Rossi didn't take the ECat to Rowan for testing?

What good would that do? Consider how few here (or the science community at large) consider Rowan’s tests of Blacklight Power means anything.

[ScottL]

Would you demonstrate a device in public without any patent protection? I know the owners of my start up wouldn't

Em. . .that's the first weighty explanation for what I've seen that makes sense.

You certainly have my ear. Why not bend it a little and explain in detail, why you believe Rossi has something against all odds. I'm very curious and eager to hear what you have to say.

To start, if Rossi does not have and cannot get any patent protection for his work, then what does he think will earn him a living? Does he think he can build millions of his reactors, and no one will ever look inside them to see what he has? Seems implausible to me.

I don't see a way to gain financially from an invention one does not hold a credible patent for. Enlighten me.

What if it were originally meant to be an investor scam that got too much attention. Now that its being scrutinized, the only avenues are to either pull it back into a mysterious state much like Rossi has done, or try to let the whole thing drop while letting conspiracy theorists fabricate what "might" have happened. Children (and some adults) when caught in a lie or fabrication, will often try to save face with some ridiculous explanation.

*The above is a what-if scenario, not stating it as fact, just plausible.

[CKay]

Many posters here seem to think that Rossi came up with the device on his own in a basement somwhere. This is also a strawman argument.

No, a straw man argument is where one party presents a distorted, and easily refutable, version of his opponent's position.

None of the examples you claimed to be straw men do that - they aren't straw men. *shrug*

[ladajo]

Please also recall that it is a willful distortion. Not one based in an honest interpretation that misses the mark of person A.

[CKay]

Please also recall that it is a willful distortion. Not one based in an honest interpretation that misses the mark of person A.

Okay: one party presents a deliberately distorted, and easily refutable, version of his opponent's position.

Makes no difference - Crawdaddy's claimed straw men are still not straw men.

[Crawdaddy]

Many posters here seem to think that Rossi came up with the device on his own in a basement somwhere. This is also a strawman argument.

No, a straw man argument is where one party presents a distorted, and easily refutable, version of his opponent's position.

None of the examples you claimed to be straw men do that - thus, they are straw men. *shrug*

That is because you have a distorted view of the facts. You think that your strawman arguments are not strawmen. It's like a meta strawman.

You present critiques of the device that ignore essential details of the story.

For instance, Rossi has no credibility therefore his device is a fraud is a strawman argument because a version of his device is being developed by an entirely unrelated company defkalion.

You present your argument as though defkalion doesn't exist.

BTW I am up 2500$ on my nickel investment.

[Skipjack]

As above. He doesn’t need to at all.

Ok, now this is where things are getting really paradox.
Nasonex and the other Rossi- supporters are claiming that we, the evil skeptics (and until his recent bail out of pretty much all his promises, I was not a skeptic, but an agnostic) are supressing Rossi's great invention that will save us all, because we demand evidence for his claims.
But at the same time, they now claim that Rossi does not have to provide evidence and that it does not matter what the evil skeptics think anyway. Well if it does not matter what we think, then why are Rossi and his supporters so upset?
If it does matter what we think, why cant they be bothered to provide us with the few things we are asking for (which really is NOT much)?
Really it is not like we are asking the world or something. We are simply asking Rossi to do something he is allegedly doing all the time anyway under controlled observing conditions.

[CKay]

You present critiques of the device that ignore essential details of the story.

For instance, Rossi has no credibility therefore his device is a fraud is a strawman argument because a version of his device is being developed by an entirely unrelated company defkalion.

You present your argument as though defkalion doesn't exist.

Where have I presented this argument? Falsely claiming that I've made an argument, now that is a strawman.

BTW I am up 2500$ on my nickel investment.

And that's down to market confidence that Rossi/Defkalion have something, or just the commodities bubble that's seeing the price of raw materials rise across the board?

(And I think you've been confusing ad hominems for straw men.)

[ladajo]

Please also recall that it is a willful distortion. Not one based in an honest interpretation that misses the mark of person A.

Okay: one party presents a deliberately distorted, and easily refutable, version of his opponent's position.

Makes no difference - Crawdaddy's claimed straw men are still not straw men.

I agree. The cites he makes are more like red herrings mixed with division and some hasty generalization, with a smidge of slippery slope and biased induction for taste.

But, I think he is seeking Tu Quoque. That would seem to be the most apropos supposition.

[GIThruster]

GIT

Just saying, I don't think Rossi has made a serious attempt to provide the world with credible evidence.

He doesn’t need to.

The fact he bought himself an academic credential goes very hard against his believability.

He has a genuine PhD.. He probably took the other course in order to learn something. It’s not just to buy a certificate for money. He didn’t need the degree. He never mentions it.

Sorry man, but you're clueless. I have this bridge for sale. . .it's called the George Washington and links upper NYC to NJ. You can have it clean for just $100 million dollars. What do you say?

[ladajo]

P,
Jump on it! You will get you money back in like 3 months or so! That is a bargain! After that it is profit profit profit baby!

In case you were wondering, that is about 300,000 cars per day...100 plus million per year.

[parallel]

GIT

Sorry man, but you're clueless. I have this bridge for sale. . .it's called the George Washington and links upper NYC to NJ. You can have it clean for just $100 million dollars. What do you say?

When Rossi was 19 and 20 years old he was in college and played in sports 8 hours a day. He won the “Italian Champion of road race” at 20 and the “junior world record of 24 hour race” at 19. At the University of Milan, Rossi majored in Physical Science and Chemistry and then went on to study Philosophy under Professor Ludovico Geymonat and in 1973 when he was 23 he graduated with a degree in Philosophy.

[GIThruster]

GIT

Sorry man, but you're clueless. I have this bridge for sale. . .it's called the George Washington and links upper NYC to NJ. You can have it clean for just $100 million dollars. What do you say?

When Rossi was 19 and 20 years old he was in college and played in sports 8 hours a day. He won the “Italian Champion of road race” at 20 and the “junior world record of 24 hour race” at 19. At the University of Milan, Rossi majored in Physical Science and Chemistry and then went on to study Philosophy under Professor Ludovico Geymonat and in 1973 when he was 23 he graduated with a degree in Philosophy.

Was that degree a PhD? And if so, why did he pay for a fraudulent degree from Kensington?

Honestly, why would any legitimate PhD holder pay for a fake degree from a sheepskin mill?

[ladajo]

I really do no think he has a Doctorate. I think there has been some confusion. As far as I can tell he has a Laurea from U. Milano in Philosphy. The confusion here is that in Rossi's day, Italian Universities offered only Laurea. It was typically a 4 to 6 year run. The was no such thing as undergrad, Master's and Doctorate per se. for them. They offered one degree. Nowadays, they track like everyone else, with the effective three layers.

In Rossi's case, it is technically correct that he is a "Doctor". But that is due to an artifact of the old Italian system. It is not a PhD. And is no longer thought as such. At best, one could argue that it is a straight run Master's equivilant. But, in reality, it was just an extended Bachelor's program. And this is why the Italians revamped the entire system.

Kensington was exactly a diploma mill. Nothing more. Rossi's 1979 BS in Chemistry was purely a falsehood.

To correct a mistranslation (probably by Google), here is the original Rossi Bio (written by him). And my take on the key parts for what it says.

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiEC ... -Bio.shtml

Durante le vacanze scolastiche, dal 1957 al 1968, lavora nell’officina meccanica del padre Luigi, specializzata nella costruzione di carpenteria metallica media. Impara ad usare tutte le principali macchine operatrici di carpenteria (saldatrici, torni, piegatrici, cesoie ecc.). Impara a disegnare e costruire macchinari di vario genere e ad organizzare il lavoro in fabbrica.

Durante questo periodo non succedono cose particolari; la vita di Andrea Rossi in questo periodo trascorre studiando almeno 8 ore al giorno e facendo sport (atletica leggera, campione italiano 1970 di corsa su strada, record mondiale juniores 1969 nella 24 ore di corsa).

Negli studi era particolarmente portato per la fisica e la chimica; si iscrive alla Facoltà di Filosofia per approfondire le radici del sapere scientifico e la loro origine da un punto di vista matematico-filosofico; ha seguito un corso particolare, ideato dal prof. Ludovico Geymonat, di Filosofia della Scienza.

Nel 1973 Andrea Rossi si laurea in Filosofia presso l’Università degli studi di Milano con una Tesi sulla Teoria della Relatività di Albert Einstein e le sue correlazioni con la Fenomenologia di Husserl ( 110/110).

Nel 1979 Andrea Rossi otterà la laurea in Ingegneria Chimica presso l’Università di Kensington, in California (USA) anche in virtù dei numerosi crediti professionali acquisiti presso tale Università grazie ai numerosi brevetti depositati fin dai primi anni della propria carriera professionale.

In summary, Rossi part timed in his dad's machinery shop when younger. Specifically during school vacations from 57-68.
He studied at least 8 hours per day, as well as did sports (runner).

Once at U. Milano, he studied philosophy, with intent to further scientific knowledge and its origins from a perspective of mathemathics/philosophy.
His Thesis paper was a study of Einstien's Theory of Relativity and Husserl's Phenomonology.

In simple terms, he bought a BS in Chemistry from Kensington in 1979. He cites it was granted in recognition of his many patents and experience (and of course, cash money.) <There was no study or courses for Kensington. And this is what got it shut down and put out of business as a diploma mill.>

Basically, what I see is that Rossi found early on he could spin a yarn, and get folks to buy it. If he was such a whiz at science and physics, etc at a young age, why did he not go for a hard engineering degree instead of Philosphy? Eventually, he just went and bought one from Kensington.

I was working in controls engineering in NH just before Rossi got there in the 90's. Biomass was a big thing. There were several popups that generated power from woodchips and trash burning. I particullary did some work on a reccuring basis with one in the Bedford area. The big drama was waste ash and gases. Lots of stress over that. Would've been easy for Rossi to get a job in the area at the time, especially if he was claiming some expertise in trash burning for power. At the time of his arrival to the Bedford area, I was around, but was doing telecom engineering with a company called Summa Four in Manchester. I left NH shortly thereafter. It would be ironic for me if I had actually met the madman then. Humpfh.

[tomclarke]

Crawdaddy,

Unless there was fraud in the experiment, the resistive heating of the reactor prior to the onset of cold fusion roughly calibrates the device. This is a trivial observation, anyone who spent any time thinking about it wouldn't even bother to mention it.

Not only that, anyone experienced in experimental procedure would have thermocouples and instrumentation with errors that would be trivial compared to temperatures measured.

To suggest, as tomclarke did above, that one wouldn't mount the thermocouples properly, assumes they are all as technically illiterate as Skipjack.

parallel. I get quite annoyed that you either don't think, or score cheap debating points.

Not mounting thermocouple properly to measure moving liquid temperature is pretty easy. You might clamp it to the outside of a tube reckining that any error would be underestimate of output power. LOL. But this is Rossi doing the clamping. His output thermocouples tend to be buried inside the sealed reactor housing. I'm sure you see the potential problems...